Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[alva]

At least maybe I'm helping you build your English vocabulary skills. )

Didn't say I didn't like it , I do. But it makes things for (us?) me even more complicated then they allready are.
BTW, care to learn some dutch?

Turn has been sent to SR allready!!

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I would like to take a stab at this thing in the morning (im tired and I just got home). I see the issues addresed and want us to put less threat and take it to cautious. I read the letter and it seems a thinly veiled threat. I would rather push the point on Thadeus, keep what nbarclay has gotten together, but I want to pad it out a little. Friendly it up and be clearer with our intentions and consequenses.

I'm not sure we want to be clearer with our intentions and consequences. Anything clearer would go from a thinly veiled threat to an explicit one, which is directly at odds with the "friendly it up" idea.

If you read the various threads, we're on the brink of war (at least to the extent of us trying to kill the two Voxian explorers poking around our lands) if this matter is not resolved fairly quickly. So please don't get so friendly that they fail to recognize the gravity of the situation.

Nathan

[Meshelic]

Hmm...maybe they need something more blatant like "move your guys north or we kill you"

Just kidding.

Should they move their explorers out of the way in the north and allow us to explore as we are destined to, then there should not be much problem, although I don't like the idea of Voxians wandering around on our peninsula much at all.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Meshelic
Should they move their explorers out of the way in the north and allow us to explore as we are destined to, then there should not be much problem, although I don't like the idea of Voxians wandering around on our peninsula much at all.

I don't like it either, but I'd rather have them poke around and have us able to make contact with whoever they have contact with than not have them poke around and not be able to make contact.

[DeepO]

Phew... this thread grows faster then I can read it! Finally reached the end

A few comments:
- I would give them our map, if we are allowed to explore theirs. Otherwise there simply has to be some action, so it's good to hint at that in a message to them
- the replies I saw focused exclusively on the exploration issue, which may be the main part, but we have to tell them other things to. After all, we asked for 5 points, they answered us on 5 points, so we need to reply to at least some of those to. They said they have met, if we want to stay polite, we need to say we are still exploring, and they are the first we meet, but hope to establish contact with other nations soon.
- In the reply, you twice accuse them of being hypocrits. They are, of course, but diplomatically speaking once would be enough. Find another word second time, our book of wisdom can be cruder, but there is no need to repeat it. They will get the message.
- Spies: again, quite strongly put. Something more mild would be better
- we should hint at military strength, I think. We can assume by now they have 4 units (or the power graph should indicate another bump), we are still the stronger party. Maybe include something like 'our military strength is already the larger of our 2 nations, we would hope we can use our resources more peacefully from now on.' Might also include a reply to their surprise as of how much we know of the land: we can simply say it seems we have more then their 4 scouts, and used them for what they were build: exploration. We don't want to turn them into warriors.
- further, comment on the strategy thread: they are right in fearing fastmovers, as these are, in our mind, better on defense.
- it is good to hint at our warcaptains, but farther then that I wouldn't go. Already this reply is a direct threat... not the best start of a trade relation. Maybe include some sentense which essentially says 'we really would hope a peaceful relation ensues, so that in a few centuries we both laugh at the initial tension after meeting us'

a bit related: RPG asked for minimap information, maybe we should exchange it, if only to know they met Vox. or something else can be done with them, they seem more eager at a diplo relation.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, and a bit economical thing: I proposed to build a warrior before a settler in the test, because he could fill a void where EotS needed to grow. Building a settler would push our size down too far. With the forests, it should be possible to build settlers back-to-back after that, if we have enough workers. So forests can go to settler builds, and don't need to waste any shields on warriors.

But this comment is not on topic in this thread, I only wanted to reply to the economical issues where they were raised.

DeepO

[alva]

- I would give them our map, if we are allowed to explore theirs. Otherwise there simply has to be some action, so it's good to hint at that in a message to them

We might aswell trade our minimap around, VOX is going to do it anyway IMO.

We can't get a second front anyway so...

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO

a bit related: RPG asked for minimap information, maybe we should exchange it, if only to know they met Vox. or something else can be done with them, they seem more eager at a diplo relation.

Since RP is one of the religious civs, a trade of minimaps with them would indeed be useful to find out whether they're the ones who met Vox. If not, we can figure it's probably Demogyptica and see if we can negotiate something with them.

Nathan

[alva]

Demogyptica

They were very willing awhile ago...

If they have changed their mind, we know what might be causing it

[DeepO]

Yes, minimap exchanging need to be addressed again. But keep in mind it is still very possible that Vox got CB from a hut, so the ones they've met aren't religious. Or they traded it from them, but the mystery civ got it from a hut. The religious civs are a bit more likely, but there are a lot of other possibilities.

What about the other comments, aren't we inciting (Alva: 'ophitsen'... from my school Prisma. might not be the best translation) ourselves here, posting a too harsh response simply because one says this is an act of aggression, the next one has dreams of going to war, the following on our team builds on that, and in a few pages of text we lost our initial goal and only see how much we can gain? Everybody seems to assume all deals are off, because they have the momentary advantage. I agree this doesn't look good, but take it easy people, blocking our path while exploring themselves is not a war declaration (yet)! I think (shotgun) diplomacy is in order here before we commit to anything else.

DeepO

[alva]

isn't 'ophitsen' - 'to arouse' ?

It works in Dutch both ways though, anyway they'll understand it.
Couldn't care less if not, if we have to learn a new language, just so we can communicate with them, they at least can make the effort to fill in the blanks, sort of speak
And I have been getting private lessons all day here

'Worked - up' might be closer

[DeepO]

that was what I had in mind, Vox got us all aroused
Nah, worked up might be better.

But seriously, I think me might be overreacting here, I too like a good rush (although I don't go all the way like Arrian or Theseus (or Sir Ralph) would), but still think other options are better. The next few diplomatic contacts need to be faster, so what about starting to plan for this?

BTW, Where is Mesh when you need him? I haven't seen our diplo chief commenting on this, and in general only a few of our diplomats. All comments are of course welcome, and this is a very serious problem where the whole team needs to have its say, but I feel the diplomats are understaffed here while it is clearly a diplo problem.

DeepO

[DeepO]

1. Regarding the question of further exploration, we feel that at this early stage of our existence, it is important to both our civilizations to learn more about the world around us. We of Vox Controli recognize your right to expand your horizons. We humbly request that you recognize ours.

However, this being said, we also clearly recognize your sovereignty over your lands. We promise to fully respect the borders of your civilization, and further promise to commit no acts of aggression in any way, shape, or form.

Okay, I went back, to see the exact wording of their message. Further, let's see it from their perspective for once, instead of focusing on our own needs.

Basically, this is very polite, and friendly, and if it wasn't for Eli's strategy thread, there would be absolutely no reason to suspect foul play. If the Ishtmus was ours, we would block it immediately, certainly after learning another civ is just accross. Also, note that they ask to explore, and want to give the right to explore. So, no threats now, simply ask them to pass. There is a good chance they will agree.

Why wouldn't they agree?
1) they want to block our exploring. Of course, they know it would suite them if we don't know their position. But they have to realise that by exploring themselves, it would be seen as an act of aggression. So there is a good chance this is not an issue to them.

2) Most likely, their biggest fear is that we would take the Isthmus, thus blocking their expansion onto our side. most of the blocks on these necks don't come from wanting to keep someone out, but allowing to pass it yourself. This would be my biggest concern if someone asked to pass a block. Of course, they have to realize that we have enough warriors close by to block them anyhow, only one tile further (and with a langer maginot line, thus inherently weaker).

So, why don't we propose to them that if they would allow us to pass the Isthmus, we give the property right of it to them, solemnly pledging to not pass it, or build close to it (so it would fall in our official territory)? Effectivly, we would say to them: your cultural borders have not reached so far, but in exchange of being allowed to pass, we consider the Isthmus within your cultural border. All acts concerning the tile from our side can be seen as aggresive, and believe us, we want to trade, and not spend resources on aggression. It would be a serious incentive for them to let us pass, and should be a lot politer, and diplomatic then simply tell them they have to move or face the consequences.

Last comment: notice that they promise to not commit any acts of aggresion, in any shape or form. They sound scared, and most likely they are. We can't safely promise to not be the first to start a war, as we agreed to play honorably, and in 50 turns, we might want to take out Vox. What we can do, however, is state that their current acts are on the brink of aggresion to us, and that possible implications this has are actively discussed in our forum. Again, it would be good to play the role of ambassador here: Mss is the middleman between the two civs, and only slightly on our side. He has to convey the message like: "I'm sorry, but I can't hold back the beast much longer. Give me something to calm my team down!"

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I think "spies" is an accurate characterization of what their warriors are. Given our offer to trade contact information, their primary purpose can hardly be anything but to secure information about what will someday be our lands, and thereby ensure themselves knowledge regarding our cities as we build them. When the exchange of ability to gather information is not by mutual consent, that makes them spies.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Okay on the spies... but still, such a harsh message to them is uncalled for. They were friendly (at least diplomatically speaking), we should be friendly. Period. (and this is a diplomat speaking ) We can act differently, but have to speak with honey on our tongue.

Besides: given that we will have great difficulties stopping their exploration, wouldn't it be best if we try to get some exploration done ourselves, instead of coming to an (agressive) impass? Keep in mind they don't really need us, as they have met someone else, and we haven't.

DeepO