Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[DeepO]

Shiber, I don't know. It is bolder indeed, but I don't like it... it would give them a tactical map of how to get to us too, and it would show them that our land is all green and lush. Nah, they only gave us minimal information on 6x4 tiles, we shouldn't give them much more.

Nathan: I understand time constraints, but I hope Vox will do so as well. I wasn't asking for a fully fleshed out proposal, just something to keep them quite. the real proposal can follow later. It's just that they specifically asked for information, we should give them something...

DeepO

[Shiber]

It's okay, it's not an issue to be resolved immediately. Besides, you deserve your rest!
I'll open a thread about this project later.

[DeepO]

Oh, and Re: irrigation project: it will do us a lot of good, if we can make the deal more attractive. Like I said: for each 2 slaves they give us, we promise to add one of our own, and work our way (irr. + road) towards them. The slaves are ours later on.

It should be good enough for them to start on immediately, and we don't lose much: a road towards them is needed anyway, and the irrigation at first can be used to get #1 going, and possibly #13 as well.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Are you guys looking at the irrigation project situation from Vox's perspective and trying to calculate what you would regard as being in your best interest if you were in their shoes?

Really, if such a project is undertaken at some point, the Vox workers would be most valuable clearing a path through the jungles and roading down to where our roading and irrigating workers could meet them. That way they'd be working at full speed instead of at half speed.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Ah, indeed, but I don't want that. if they want, they can have additional workers down that path... I look at it from our side: it is a serious gift if we are going to supply water to them, for which they will pay dearly, by giving us slaves. We OTOH aren't completely wihtout interest here, hence our proposal to add one worker to each 2 slaves they give us.

Of course, they can add on top of that by doing some of the clearing work for us, but as it will possibly not be in our interest (they would be clearing their future land), it would not be a good deal for us. No slaves is no water.

DeepO

(I'll take it to the separate thread, don't reply me here)

[zeit]

Regarding the irrigation project- i think offering it now just implies them of the overall inferiority- and we should wait untill we are in full swing before they get the impression they are seriously falling behind.

Also- i think that slaves are good, but land is even better- we can ask for slaves- which halts their growth, and/or also use the irrigation project as a card in the negotiations over land distribution- we can't allow Vox to expand too much, but we can't box them in forever- only to delay them, then ,maybe pulling out this offer of irrigation project "in order to help your growth, for the proper price" coupled with a temporary compromise on their part regarding the southern edge of the isthmus, buying us more time to out-settle them, as Nathan emphasized.

[nbarclay]

Here's a proposed message telling Vox about our territory. Does this sound accurate and reasonable? (If we're trying to build trust, we probably don't want to skimp too much on information.) Note especially, do we want to make the offer of trading minimaps that I include in the last paragraph?

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I did not think to say it in my earlier message, but thank you very much for the information you have provided us. As I watch events unfold in our councils, your new openness seems to be doing even more to undo the damage from our earlier tensions than I had hoped for. Indeed, Sir Ralph, our glorious leader, has gone from being one of our leading skeptics to being willing to trust that you will accept our trade proposal without waiting for an additional response from you. We can only hope that his faith will not be disappointed.

In regard to your interest in the geography of South Estonia, Tim is on the north end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains and Willy has entered what we call the Desert of Tears. Waters from the Spinebreaker Mountains come together to form a river we call the Flood of Tears, which borders the western edge of the desert. (By the way, we may someday be able to arrange an irrigation project to your lands if you are completely without fresh water for irrigation. Of course the scale of such a project is far beyond what would be practical until our nations are larger and more prosperous.)

South of the desert is a band of plains generally two tiles from north to south. Eye of the Storm is founded as the River of Tears enters this band, and has the mixed blessing of access to flood plains that may help it grow or die as the Generator of Fortune sees fit. Our second city, Hurricane, overlaps our capital next to where the river empties into the ocean. South of the plains, as the land narrows toward its southern tip, we have a region of grassland small enough that a single city could cover more than two thirds of it (although good use of coast can stretch its use farther).

On the western side of the continent, Tim has seen essentially all of the grasslands and forests that the area he is in has to offer. The rest is almost all hills, mountains, and a coastal desert, until a few tiles south of Willy’s latitude where the strip of plains reaches that coast. At its widest, the land stretches less than a tile west of what Tim has seen, and the land narrows to the south before reaching the band of plains.

We hope your cartographers can make good use of this description in developing at least a rough sketch of South Estonia. It is only too bad they do not yet have the skill to develop true maps.

Speaking of cartography, there is still an area of the continent that we have been left in the dark regarding. Just as North Estonia and South Estonia are separated by an isthmus and yet are, in a sense, part of the same continent, it would seem that so too is another land that you say is connected to North Estonia. We would greatly appreciate whatever information you can provide about that land, and would find it difficult to determine what should be regarded as fair borders without knowing more about that region.

There is one other matter that is puzzling our cartographers (and the rest of us too, for that matter). You referred in your message to the “Sierra Centralis.” Your only explanation of that term was as the mountains to your explorers’ north. Some think you may be referring to the northern end of what we call the Spinebreaker Mountains (of which even the northernmost ridge is closer to our capital than to yours), while others think you are referring to other mountains farther north. If you would clarify exactly which mountains you are referring to, it would be appreciated.

By the way, although the making of full maps is beyond us, our cartographers do have sufficient skill to make a more limited form of map that for some reason they call a “minimap.” (Perhaps they do so because it offers only minimal information compared with the kinds of maps they would truly like to be able to make.) If your cartographers have a similar ability, we might be able to arrange an exchange of such minimaps to gain a more complete picture of the continent than words alone can provide.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[alva]

I like it very much

[DeepO]

I'm not sure... maybe this is overdoing it. They surely get a very detailed map, although one thing I like is that the area that looks least interesting (the coastal desert on the West), is in fact one of the more improtant regions for trade purposes. (gold, incense).

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, Re: minimap trading: sure... but please no full minimaps right away, or not until we traded them with quite a few other civs. I don't Vox enough that they won't sell them for a bunch of gold.

BTW, what about including a paragraph about secrecy of diplomatic deals? Have we said at any time we regards deals to be something between them and us, and we don't expect these negotations to be leaked to another team?

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I've already sent the message; it was getting close to Vox's turn, and after Sir Ralph's gamble that Vox will accept the trade deal, I wanted Vox to have an extra sign of good faith on our part. Besides, I'd had the message up on this thread where people could comment on it for about 14 hours, and the only comment I'd gotten was Alva's positive one.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Nathan, sorry, I didn't saw you already sent it. I like it, don't read my comments as negative ones... they aren't

But, regarding secrecy, was it ever discussed with Vox? maybe it should receive some light soon, if only to remind them of what we think on the privacy of our negotiations.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

New message sent regarding the confidentiality issue. See the ambassador's office thread for the actual text.

[DeepO]

Now Vox certainly will have a lot to think about. I'm curious to what kind of activity this will lead the following few days / turns.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Thanks for calling the oversight to my attention.

At this point, it would likely be difficult to back out from an exchange of full minimaps with Vox if they really want one without increasing tensions, so you may want to accelerate such trades with other civs.

Nathan