Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[Shiber]

I think letting them open negotiations by asking them what they would offer would be bad practice. Furthermore, I think we should open negotiations with demands for a certain amount of gold or a certain tech and two slaves and only go as far as lowering our demands to one slave, which we will promise to return to Vox as soon as he completes his job.
I agree that we should irrigate as far as the jungle and then allow them to join in the work.

[DeepO]

Why return any slaves? I love the deal, but they should be able to build other workers...

I would offer something like this: For every 2 slaves you give us, we will add one worker of our own. That pack starts clearing jungle, building road, and laying down irrigation to your city at the fastest possible path. You can choose how fast this will be by giving us more slaves (can also be done when irrigation is already in progress). After completion, we are free to do with the slaves as we please. Maybe we'll sell them back to you, maybe we'll add them to one of our cities. Maybe we'll keep them around as trophies

Now, if they can sweeten the deal on another front, we can consider pairing one of our workers with only 1 slave. But we should try to assess how many turns it is going to take, and use that as part of the negotations.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Arrian, other thought: what if Civ X can give them water faster?

DeepO

[alva]

It's worth a try, let's be non specific about it and see what their response is.

[Harovan]

Did any of you read their last note carefully?

They claim all the land till the "Sierra Centralis". With this is most likely meant the northern part of the Spinebreaker mountains, and hardly the few hills around the Neck of Fate. And they demand us to withdraw our explorers (Grog and Slash) too. Their claim is completely inacceptable. Our diplomats should send a note about this.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Did any of you read their last note carefully?

They claim all the land till the "Sierra Centralis". With this is most likely meant the northern part of the Spinebreaker mountains, and hardly the few hills around the Neck of Fate. And they demand us to withdraw our explorers (Grog and Slash) too. Their claim is completely inacceptable. Our diplomats should send a note about this.

In the last turn thread, I suggested a counterproposal that each side maintain forward observers so we can be sure each other's military forces are a long way away from us. Our demanding to keep troops near their border without allowing theirs near ours would be no more reasonable than having them keep exploring while blocking us - something they finally (albeit a little later than we would have liked) decided to agree to stop doing.

I also don't see how we could justify demanding that they not expand south for as long as land is available, given how little decent land they say they have north of the chokepoint. If we don't want to be guilty of tricks at least as nasty and empty of honor as anything we were afraid they might do to us, our proper course is simply to out-REX them and try to settle as much land as possible before a border forms naturally as all available, reasonably productive land is claimed. (We might, however, push the idea of fairly tight city spacing on their side too so they don't end up consuming an amount of land totally disproportionate to the number of cities they build.)

Nathan

[Shiber]

That, assuming that what they told us about their land is true.
They may well be lying. They could count on the fact that we'll never actually see their land until we either invade it (by then it won't matter how much trust is between us and Vox) or get the map from someone else (which may take a very long time, and when the moment comes it won't matter anymore if they made a few "exaggerations" regarding the nature of their home territory).

[Harovan]

I think they speak the truth. All signs we saw so far prove this. The time and place they met us (low distance to their cities from the isthmus), the fact that they finished to explore their own landmass so quick (small landmass) and the fact, that they grow not very quick (poor unfertile land). The only thing I don't understand is, that they obviously threw all their warriors to our side and left none at the "land bridge" to the other continent they mentioned.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
That, assuming that what they told us about their land is true.
They may well be lying. They could count on the fact that we'll never actually see their land until we either invade it (by then it won't matter how much trust is between us and Vox) or get the map from someone else (which may take a very long time, and when the moment comes it won't matter anymore if they made a few "exaggerations" regarding the nature of their home territory).

So what do you want to do, base our entire relationship with Vox on the assumption that they're lying to us?

When we get galleys, we can check their coastline and verify their claims, and if they've been lying, we have a perfect justification for going to war. In the meantime, our economy seems more than sufficient for us to be able to base our actions on the assumption that they're telling the truth.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I think they speak the truth. All signs we saw so far prove this. The time and place they met us (low distance to their cities from the isthmus), the fact that they finished to explore their own landmass so quick (small landmass) and the fact, that they grow not very quick (poor unfertile land). The only thing I don't understand is, that they obviously threw all their warriors to our side and left none at the "land bridge" to the other continent they mentioned.

That's the big question all right, and we'd do well to ask it as part of negotiating how our border with them will be determined.

I don't have time for more diplomatic work today, but I have some thoughts that have been stirring in my mind and I'll try to draft a proposal tomorrow (assuming I have the team's consent to continue in my position of special envoy until these initial issues are settled).

Nathan

[Arrian]

I did notice the "Sierra Centralis" reference, and chose to ignore it for the time being. Let them build their city by "the neck" If we are forced to withdraw our warriors (due to them being in their new borders, we withdraw only as far as is absolutely necessary. Hopefully by then we can get a third warrior up their and still block them.

If they want our warriors moved so they can expand, let them ask.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Arrian

If they want our warriors moved so they can expand, let them ask.

They've already asked, if you look at their message closely.

I'm thinking in terms of having both civs station lookouts on mountains near each other's borders so we can each have confidence that an invasion will be spotted well in advance, with the observers moving back as the civs grow. (And in the process, we could withdraw Slash to check out that last little bit of coast we haven't explored yet, since one warrior is sufficient for observation purposes. Hack and Ouch can keep watch on the Vox warriors who will be watching us, and we shouldn't be surprised if a Vox warrior wants to watch our observer.)

By the way, I should have said I don't have time for non-emergency diplomatic matters today; if an emergency comes up, I'll see if I can make time.

Nathan

[alva]

But by building on 'our' side;

1. they have units 'patrolling' borders, that don't have to be warriors btw, if that hill holds iron... (perhaps they might even smuggle a few too their nearest city too us, we will not have a 16 tile/turn warning then)
2. they will be alot closer due to VOX building roads close to us.

-
Why should we give in first time, let them sit on it too, let them run after us trying to make a deal, let them offer us something. The last few turns we've almost had to beg them.

[Arrian]

Yeah, let's stall them as much as possible, without being too obvious.

Containment, boys, containment (with a smiling face... call it "compassionate containment" [/G.W.B. reference]).

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

Question:

Which mountains are they claiming?
The northern most that we can see, just south of their isthmus?
The mountains south of the jungle?


Are we taking this seriously? I don't. Why should we allow them to settle our lands, whilst we sit on our hands, just because they said it first, even though we we physically there hundreds of years before them.

I think as soon as they can, they will rush us with immortals, I think this is inevitible. There is only one purpose of their unit, and that is war.

I would say that we need an alliance with the north (or east) to guard against them.

(paranoia strikes deep in the heartland)