Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[alva]

Do we have the gold to do this?

[alva]

Having one more city sure would help alot..

[Harovan]

We actually can have 2 more freebie units, and for a short while can afford to run a deficit. It would be not for long, because after it's done, EotS can make a settler in 4 or maybe even 3 turns and our # of free units will increase. Also, we would probably suffer some losses in the battles.

[Harovan]

Now if I had 2-3 Archers.... *dreams*

[alva]

I would suggest keeping all existing (except no-name) going to Neck..
Try to take out the other Vox Warriors with new build units.
(If we attack (and win) the Istmuth they will retreat anyway IMHO)
1. We would have the initiative
2. We have a couple of expandable units on the hill?
3. reinforcements on the way..

[nbarclay]

Edit: this is a response to the proposal to attack the warriors exploring south, not to Alva's proposal.

By the time we would attack, Vox would already have essentially all of the important military information that it could get. Information about our southern region is useful to them only in letting them know how big we are, and might even work in part to our advantage in providing some intimidation value if we can out-REX them as much as I'm hoping we can. (We'll have a settler pump; they won't, at least not for some time yet.) So I don't like the idea of compromising growth in EotS to build extra warriors at this time.

And Sir Ralph, you're not the only one dreaming of what we could do if we had archers.

Nathan

[alva]

update on Eli's strategy thread

Is Vox preparing for war?

A slow moving army in enemy territory should not be distracted by the fast moving enemy units and instead head directly to stationary targets like the enemy's capital.
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mixing in both offense-oriented and defense-oriented units (at about a 2-1 ratio): e.g., 6 immortals + 3 spear/pike. Try to find avenues of approach crossing rough terrain, for the defensive bonus.
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One thing the AI does is attack stragglers and damaged units trying to get*
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Eli
You're all talking about the AI, but what if the opponent is human?

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(part of jshler's answer)
IMO, speed is a must for offensive tactics in multiplayer. However, my bet is that civ III gets more like WWI as it goes along in the sense that reasonable human defence on a home country road system should beat offense.

Say, for example, that a stack of immortals trudge across the Siberian plains and finally arrive at Russia who has only swords and horses to defend. Persia will still have a tough time because they have to come to the Russian units who will generally fight with 3 attack to 2 defense or with retreat 2 on 2. A well covered stack will eventually get to a city, I suppose, at cconsiderable cost. But the human defender will concentrate forces using the road system in defensive strongholds better than the AI. What if the city has walls or is size 7 and has a barracks for healing while you don't have battlefield medicine yet. Then you are matching expensive immortals against cheap spears with little to show for it. On the other hand, if the riders from China show up, they are a real problem since they generally will be able to bring their 4 attack to bear and they have enough range to make defensive force concentration more difficult.
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note: I cut a few answers..

*not important post, but it lead to Eli's following up question.

[Harovan]

Nathan, so you are basically saying we let them spy us out without any resistance, and whore our map around for money? That would be a sign of weakness, imho.

For the diplomats, RE the barbarian argument: We could propose to block the isthmus together, where it is not 1 but 2 tiles wide. One warrior of theirs and one of ours.

[Harovan]

Alva: I saw this post. I don't think they prepare for war yet, but they are seriously considering it for the near future. One more reason not to let them spy us out.

Nathan, we would not compromise growth in EotS, because warriors don't cost pop points . At the countrary, it would grow yet more.

[Dominae]

Nathan, I believe your letter to Vox precisely sums up what we're thinking on the diplomatic scene right now. However, this is not the message we want to get across to the Voxians themselves. Although I'm a big fan of being "straight up", we need to nuance our comms a little bit here. After all, the Voxians may want to be tech-trading partners. There is no need yet for harsh language like 'hypocrisy', 'war', 'insincere', etc.

First, we want to convince them to let their Warrior "step aside" in order to let ours through. If they straight out refuse (or attempt to delay, this time with no good excuse), we begin hinting that "early skirmishes to defend our homeland" will be inevitable. Preparing for this eventuality, I believe amassing a small force of Warriors is a necessity (not at the expense of expansion, of course). If ever we do go to war, 2 against 1 odds should be ok. If the cost of expunging them from our heartland is 1 Warrior (for both sides), so be it. This will hurt them more than us due to their UU.

We should not trade techs at this point, no matter how much we may want Bronze Working (or even Iron Working). We researched The Wheel of strategic purposes, and all of this and more will be lost if we let them obtain it and trade it away in turn.

Finally, I do not believe that they are trying to trick us about the number of civs they've met. Sure "we've met another civ" could mean that that other civ is us, but such a devious phrasing is both difficult to come up with (do we give them that much credit?) and inflammatory if ever we figure it out. If they are lying, there goes any trust until they complete the Eiffel Tower.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
For the diplomats, RE the barbarian argument: We could propose to block the isthmus together, where it is not 1 but 2 tiles wide. One warrior of theirs and one of ours.

What would this accomplish? Sure, it would prevent a third party from exploring our lands, by they're 1 Warrior already takes care of this. In fact, if they stay where they are, they could prevent a third civ from contacting us at all, which the partnership you're proposing would fail to do.

The two tiles just beyond the 1-tile isthmus is not a bad location for us to set up our own blockade. They would be foolish to assault the Hill, and going the other way would leave them open to an assault from the Hill.


Dominae

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dominae
What would this accomplish?

It is just a possible answer to the lame argument "Thadeus is fortified to protect our land from barbarians".

[alva]

Finally, I do not believe that they are trying to trick us about the number of civs they've met.

1. If they hold the isthmus, it could be very long before we meet anyone else
2. how are we going to prove they havn't done so?

you made some good points though Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Nathan, so you are basically saying we let them spy us out without any resistance, and whore our map around for money? That would be a sign of weakness, imho.

I hadn't thought ahead to what to do with our map later, but I suppose that if Vox in effect has it, we may not have much choice but to sell it ourselves.

The real problem is that if we can't persuade Vox to back down through diplomatic means, there is no truly good solution. On one hand, we don't want them wandering around and mapping our territory. But on the other, we have a lot to lose if we attack and get unlucky with the RNG, not to mention that attacking their warriors would escallate hostilities in a way that could hurt both nations relative to the rest of the world.

My own first instinct is to let Vox get away with their transgression for the time being if they insist on doing so, and to focus on economic and military expansion aimed at making them pay the ultimate price later. But I'll admit it's more an instinctive reaction than a product of full and careful analysis.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
It is just a possible answer to the lame argument "Thadeus is fortified to protect our land from barbarians".

True. I was assuming the Voxians want to block us (a safe bet, no?). If they refuse your proposal, they're openly admitting this. A nice political maneuver but, given that it's just us and them, I do not think much good will come from forcing them to account for their actions (no UN yet).


Dominae