Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[Dominae]

What do we do if they politely refuse our "good faith" proposal and inform us that they would prefer to explore? Where does that put diplomatic relations between our teams?


Dominae

[alva]

I'd say the temperature goes down a few degrees.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alva
I'd say the temperature goes down a few degrees.

Far enough that all our other proposals are moot?


Dominae

[alva]

Far enough to start using a different tone.
(At least temporarely)

[DeepO]

Hmmm... I don't think I'll agree. We might start opening our book of warriors, but other then that we should remain friendly for the moment... kissing their ass (Eiks.. flash's behind )

DeepO

[alva]

I just had a look too see when they would meet our other 2 warriors (show of force, or book of warriors )
But that one doesn't help us much
(have to do it by diplomacy)

The reason I would take a firmer stance is that after all the discussion on trading minimaps/location/direction an whatsnot, it would be ashame to expose all to a single warrior who we let wander freely trough our lands.

(from the 'arguable' weakest team).

I'm pretty sure they will listen to reason..

(I've seen the same thing happen in the Euro game more then once now.
It's not because you say,
"oi mate, stop right there, or else"
, this should have any negative effect on future trade / diplomacy.
It's just a case of establishing borders IMHO

[DeepO]

Hmmm... it's true when it comes to establishing borders, but in the Euro game those borders were made the moment we met, and not a few turns after that. I'm not sure we would be able to discuss borders on the NoF, if we met a few tiles of that... and I don't want to block the Neck with 3 warriors just because we met there.

Of course, it could be possible that you're talking about some other deal, I'm unaware of in the Euro game. If so: please elaborate

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae


Far enough that all our other proposals are moot?

As far as I'm concerned, finding out whether the two of us are alone together is a LOT more important than whether or not the two civs explore within each other's borders. Keep in mind that we learn just as much about them as they learn about us if the first deal falls through, and our defenses are pretty solid relative to what they have nosing around. (And if there is someone else on the other side of them, or if they won't tell us, we pretty much have to have at least limited access through their territory to make contact or find out for ourselves about whether they have contact.)

Regarding the other deals, we could still deal in terms of mutual benefit, but any deal that requires significant amounts of trust would tend to be undermined if they keep nosing around our territory over our obejections.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO
Of course, it could be possible that you're talking about some other deal, I'm unaware of in the Euro game. If so: please elaborate

Until recently, Alva and I have tended to keep our relationship mostly secret (although Alex's scout has presumably helped him figure out a lot about it). But since one purpose of the Euro PBEM game was as a testbed for this one, I don't mind divulging state secrets from the lesser game for the benefit of the greater one (and I hope Alva agrees).

Alva and I actually met about the same time Alex and DeepO did, and we're so close together that our proximity could easily have resulted in violence. But instead, we embarked on a close tech partnership, and a key piece of the foundation of that relationship was an agreement not to nose around each other's territory. That made it a lot easier for me (and I imagine for Alva also) to focus primarily on economic rather than military matters.

Both the privacy deal between Alva and me and a later one between DeepO and me were negotiated very quickly after we met. But then again, none of us had the burden of needing to govern by committee.

Nathan

[alva]

(and I hope Alva agrees).

NO

of needing to govern by committee.

Well, what it certainly did show was the power of trade..

My militairy is very weak(thats part of the reason that the scout is still alive!), but as long as Nathan doesn't backstab me, I just don't need one..for now.
even if he attacks me, I could still buy both DeepO and Alex into some kind of revenge deal by now( so don't don't even think about it )
(the fact that war id going on down south, does help of course )

[alva]

Regarding the other deals, we could still deal in terms of mutual benefit, but any deal that requires significant amounts of trust would tend to be undermined if they keep nosing around our territory over our obejections.

The thing is IMO, we CAN controll their in-game moves (without underestimating them, I guess it's safe to say that we are superior to them in CIV3 terms)
But whatever is done outside the game is well, uncontrolable...
(Selling info on where we are could be quite valuable to them, but as it stands they still don't know anything.)
That's why,again IMHO, it is VERY important to stop those warriors ASAP.

I'm not saying we should bully them. Something like:

Hi guys, what's up?
Not to presure you, take your time, but there is one small thing.
Some of our more militant GS members are really getting worried about your troop movement.
Could we get a clear cut answer on that one very, very soon.
I wouldn't like to see our partnership end before it begins.
Some of them are allready wondering wether we should even try for a longstanging partnership at all..
Which IMHO would be shame, don't you think so?
Afterall, you can agree it is in both our teams best interest to have a fruitfull relationship, right?
Hope to get your answer soon, I'll be online for another couple of hours...
see you
good luck,
blahblah
your ambassador

(just an example and quite rough, but you get the point)

Let them know we are serious about this, these things are a delicate balacing act, that needs work from both partners.

[DeepO]

Alva, I agree on the intonation of that message, but not now, not yet. Give them time to discuss it, I'm sure they are smart enough what backstabbing us could lead to. They are still 8 turns away from our territory, so can't sell anything yet (instead of letting someone now we've met). In 2 turns, they are going to see 2 more warriors, I'm certain that by that time they will contact us. If not, we should contact them when we know they played their turn, and see 4 of our warriors. BTW, I would suspect that they too keep a scout on the back, shadowing Grog, instead of getting 2 scouts in our territory.

As to the Euro game: you two seem close enough, which was clear to me when Nathan didn't want warrior code from me, not questioning what deal he could get out of it. The war (euhm... for protection, of course ) efforts against Alexman would be a lot smoother if I wouldn't need to fear the both of you, and what you could do to my unsupecting flank. But when we are playing the honesty game here: don't either of you fear that one of these days, one of you is going to take a contract on the other? Not to give you any ideas, of course

DeepO

BTW, I agree with Nathan: the most important thing we can learn is if, and who they contacted besides us. If they don't want to trade techs, we can always extort it from them. Pure tech trades will be preferable, but we have a way out... as long as we can protect ourselves decently enough to not give Vox any ideas on quick gains.

[alva]

But when we are playing the honesty game here: don't either of you fear that one of these days, one of you is going to take a contract on the other? Not to give you any ideas, of course

Nice try,
Now that's what I call diplomacy...

They are still 8 turns away from our territory, so can't sell anything yet (instead of letting someone now we've met

true,
but this will give them info when our future cities are settled.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by alva
true,
but this will give them info when our future cities are settled.

Also true. the lesser they know, the better... but still, some patience please. I hate upsetting them by pushing them... certainly if we could be pushing the wrong buttons.

DeepO

[ManicStarSeed]

Vox Reply

We have a reply, Review this Discuss here. I have a turn chat to get to. I will be around, but focused on teh SP Demo game.

Mss