Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Nathan, we would not compromise growth in EotS, because warriors don't cost pop points . At the countrary, it would grow yet more.

You're forgetting that EotS's status as a settler pump is production-constrained, not food-constrained. Even five-turn settlers represent a loss of growth due to production limitations, and trying to squeeze in warriors would interfere with growth even more.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Uum, losses of pop affect Shield output, so in sense Eye is Food-constrained. Am I not looking at it the right way?


Dominae

[alva]

constrained = limited?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
You're forgetting that EotS's status as a settler pump is production-constrained, not food-constrained. Even five-turn settlers represent a loss of growth due to production limitations, and trying to squeeze in warriors would interfere with growth even more.

I don't want to argue about a couple of shields. Economy is not all, there's also a thing called military security. We aren't playing against the AI, you know.

EotS's status as settler pump was discussed, before the current treat was discovered. Now our plans shall be adapted. This needs constructive, not destructive discussions. You have avoided to answer so far, so I ask the question directly:

What do you propose to do against the threat to be spied out and having our map whored around?

If the answer is "diplomacy", I see it already fail.

EDIT: I hadn't seen your previous post, which is basically the answer to this one. Sorry about that. I'm not very comfortable with your answer, though. There must be a better solution. The way it goes, they make fools out of us.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Nathan, I believe your letter to Vox precisely sums up what we're thinking on the diplomatic scene right now. However, this is not the message we want to get across to the Voxians themselves. Although I'm a big fan of being "straight up", we need to nuance our comms a little bit here. After all, the Voxians may want to be tech-trading partners. There is no need yet for harsh language like 'hypocrisy', 'war', 'insincere', etc.

If time were infinite, I would go with milder words now and harsher ones later if necessary. But time is not infinite, and we need to use words that will be taken seriously (assuming such a thing exists). My goal was to use harsh words regarding what the situation will be if Vox does not either withdraw their explorers or let us through, while at the same time giving Vox the opportunity to dismiss the whole thing as an oversight that can be corrected. And if they have any sense at all, they will see that the harsh words are not entirely unwarranted.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alva
constrained = limited?

Yes.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
You're forgetting that EotS's status as a settler pump is production-constrained, not food-constrained. Even five-turn settlers represent a loss of growth due to production limitations, and trying to squeeze in warriors would interfere with growth even more.

A few thoughts on this:

EotS, size 5, assuming all tiles improved (not yet the case, I know):

3 citizens on irrigated floodplains, 2 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 2 turns: City grows to size 6 and produces warrior.

- 2 citizens on irrigated floodplains, 4 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 2 turns: City makes 8 food surplus (2 to go) and 18 shields.

- 2 citizens on irrigated plains, 4 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 1 turn: City grows to size 7 and the 6 citizens make 11 shields, netting 29 shields for the settler.

If the 7th citizen makes one measly shield (should be possible to arrange), a 5 turn warrior+settler factory would be born. The only thing that could be happen is one wasted shield. I didn't check it yet, it's late here. Somebody should, though.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

What do you propose to do against the threat to be spied out and having our map whored around?

If the answer is "diplomacy", I see it already fail.

Right now we have a major long-term economic (and especially production) advantage over Vox due to our free city and what that lets us do with our settler pump. Any piece of that advantage we give up in order to get rid of the Voxian explorers will cost us when full-scale war finally comes.

One or two turns of delay in EotS doesn't look like much now. But since almost all of our other cities will be founded from EotS, either directly or indirectly, a delay of one or two turns now ripples into a loss of one or two turns' production almost empire-wide. That could make a major difference when full-scale war finally comes, and I'm reluctant to give it up just to protect what will be left hidden of our map by the time we could intercept Vox's explorers with sufficient force.

Nathan

[alva]

and I'm reluctant to give it up just to protect what will be left hidden of our map by the time we could intercept

Vox doesn't know what is left, only we do..

Seeing where we are on the minimap, this could be the case for many turns to come. I for one don't mind keeping it that way..

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


A few thoughts on this:

EotS, size 5, assuming all tiles improved (not yet the case, I know):

3 citizens on irrigated floodplains, 2 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 2 turns: City grows to size 6 and produces warrior.

- 2 citizens on irrigated floodplains, 4 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 2 turns: City makes 8 food surplus (2 to go) and 18 shields.

- 2 citizens on irrigated plains, 4 citizens on irrigated fur plains, 1 turn: City grows to size 7 and the 6 citizens make 11 shields, netting 29 shields for the settler.

If the 7th citizen makes one measly shield (should be possible to arrange), a 5 turn warrior+settler factory would be born. The only thing that could be happen is one wasted shield. I didn't check it yet, it's late here. Somebody should, though.

Nice idea, and I'm sure a variant could work (especially since the long leg only requires EotS to use two irrigated FPs for one turn and it can just use one the other two), but I suspect we'd be better off having EotS use lower-production tiles so Hurricane can use the irrigated furs to crank out veteran forces faster. EotS would be stuck building regulars unless we significantly disrupt settler and worker production to build a barracks. Still, it's worth a test when and if someone can get to it.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Nathan, apart from the "harsh" language (which you seem convinced is necessary), my other problem with your letter is that we're basically threatening war ourselves. "Let us through the isthmus, get out of our lands, trade with us" is essentially what we're saying. That's three demands. It may be very frustrating for us to have the Voxians at a momentary advantage, but we can hardly expect them to give up any advantage they have over us without reparation, especially the ones that are not directly threatening us. We are in no position to decree that the lands south of the ishtmus are ours. We may want this to be so, but we need to make this a fact. We also want to explore the North, and the Voxians understandably happen to want to prevent us from doing this. We can attempt a diplomatic solution to our problems. Anything else is clearly war.

Concerning leaving tiles for Hurricane, this is probably a fine idea in the mid to long-term. But currently, Hurricane has neither a Barracks nor useful units to build. Thus letting Eye have the best tiles and going for a Warrior/Settler pump (as Sir Ralph proposes) appears to be the best option in the short-term.

(I will do some REX testing tomorrow...I spent all my Civ-time today playing AU 203, a tough one!)


Dominae

[alva]

So we want a barracks in hurricane after building 1 or 2 warriors?
2 warriors in EotS then settler-warrior settler??

Something like this,?

[Dominae]

I have not tested anything just yet, but ideally I envision:

Eye: Warrior-Settler-Warrior-Warrior-Settler (or variant with a Worker)

Hurricane: Warrior-Warrior-Settler at first opportunity

Instead of using the bonus Shields from chopped Forest for improvements, it would be good to rush some of the Warriors, like we did at the beginning of the game.

Sorry if this sounds presumptuous. As I said I haven't tested much just yet...


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Nathan, apart from the "harsh" language (which you seem convinced is necessary), my other problem with your letter is that we're basically threatening war ourselves. "Let us through the isthmus, get out of our lands, trade with us" is essentially what we're saying. That's three demands. It may be very frustrating for us to have the Voxians at a momentary advantage, but we can hardly expect them to give up any advantage they have over us without reparation, especially the ones that are not directly threatening us. We are in no position to decree that the lands south of the ishtmus are ours. We may want this to be so, but we need to make this a fact. We also want to explore the North, and the Voxians understandably happen to want to prevent us from doing this. We can attempt a diplomatic solution to our problems. Anything else is clearly war.

What in my message are you reading as a demand for trade deals? I don't recall saying anything about trade at all. And Vox could solve the problems of apparent insincerity and hypocrisy by either withdrawing their units or letting ours through; they wouldn't have to do both.

As for the mention of war, if you don't think Vox's actions are likely to lead to war, you must not be reading the threads around here. At the very least, a police action to deal with the intruders seems almost inevitable if they persist.

I can understand Vox's desire to exploit an advantage just fine. But if Vox has no respect for our desires, why should we have any respect for theirs beyond what we regard as being to our own advantage?

Concerning leaving tiles for Hurricane, this is probably a fine idea in the mid to long-term. But currently, Hurricane has neither a Barracks nor useful units to build. Thus letting Eye have the best tiles and going for a Warrior/Settler pump (as Sir Ralph proposes) appears to be the best option in the short-term.

If Hurricane has "neither a Barracks nor useful units to build," won't it be high time for Hurricane to build a barracks?

There may well be be time periods when having EotS go into the mode Sir Ralph suggested makes sense, especially after all five furs are chopped and irrigated (or mined in the case of the one on grassland). I'm just trying to point out that that mode won't necessarily be our best use of our furs.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Eye: Warrior-Settler-Warrior-Warrior-Settler (or variant with a Worker)

Please test it, and then we'll have a concrete basis for analysis.

Hurricane: Warrior-Warrior-Settler at first opportunity

We need more tile improvements in the area before a settler from Hurricane will be practical. I'm thinking warriors and then a worker as soon as practical after size 2.

Instead of using the bonus Shields from chopped Forest for improvements, it would be good to rush some of the Warriors, like we did at the beginning of the game.

Using chops for warriors always wastes at least one shield. We did it early because we needed the fur tiles irrigated and we had to chop before we could irrigate, but it's not a good general practice.

Edit: Fixed some quoting problems.