Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
What in my message are you reading as a demand for trade deals? I don't recall saying anything about trade at all.

I threw that in because that's probably what the Voxians hear from us. First we propose a bunch of trade options, then we declare war because we don't get our way. We need to be clear about what we want (i.e. them out of territory, for starters).

Originally posted by nbarclay
And Vox could solve the problems of apparent insincerity and hypocrisy by either withdrawing their units or letting ours through; they wouldn't have to do both.

Agreed. 'Apparent' is an important word here. I think we should make it clear what Gathering Storm wants and why, then declare war if we cannot come to an agreement with Vox. No need to get angry just yet (maybe in a couple of turns).

Originally posted by nbarclay
As for the mention of war, if you don't think Vox's actions are likely to lead to war, you must not be reading the threads around here. At the very least, a police action to deal with the intruders seems almost inevitable if they persist.

Yes, but this is our decision, not theirs. Again, I don't think they're doing anything wrong: so they block an isthmus and explore the southern continent, this is unfortunate for us, but not an aggressive move on their part. If we declare war, it's because we're power-hungry, not because they're treating us unfairly.

Originally posted by nbarclay
I can understand Vox's desire to exploit an advantage just fine. But if Vox has no respect for our desires, why should we have any respect for theirs beyond what we regard as being to our own advantage?

I completely agree. We still have to think of our long-term success, however. I'm thinking they've won the battle, but not necessarily the war (say...that has a nice ring to it!).

Originally posted by nbarclay
If Hurricane has "neither a Barracks nor useful units to build," won't it be high time for Hurricane to build a barracks?

I misspoke, my fault. Warriors would be a great unit to build right now, but prepping them with a Barracks would defeat the purpose (positional and temporal advantage).

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm just trying to point out that that mode won't necessarily be our best use of our furs.

The "best use" economically doesn't always match with other needs, namely diplomacy and warfare.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

Yes, but this is our decision, not theirs. Again, I don't think they're doing anything wrong: so they block an isthmus and explore the southern continent, this is unfortunate for us, but not an aggressive move on their part. If we declare war, it's because we're power-hungry, not because they're treating us unfairly.

By the SP rules, they're doing nothing wrong. But this is MP, and humans should not be expected to be as stupid as the AIs are about simply throwing up our hands and giving a rival a major advantage. I don't view it as power-hungry for us simply to demand reciprocity. I view it as power-hungry of them to take advantage of terrain features so they can get an advantage they deny us.

The "best use" economically doesn't always match with other needs, namely diplomacy and warfare.

That is very often true in emergency situations, but in the long term, in non-emergency situations, what is best economically tends also to create the strongest military position.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I don't view it as power-hungry for us simply to demand reciprocity.

Demanding reciprocity will only work if we're disussing other deals. If they come to us and ask to trade techs, then we can expect them to leave our lands to garner trust. We could demand that they "reciprocally" give us the comm to the other civ they've contacted, or only REX as fast as we are, but that doesn't make much sense. Similarly with their advantage at the isthmus, because they're all geographical/positional advantages. Since we're not at Peace, really, their neutrality means they can fairly do whatever they want. It's our job to react however we see fit.

Originally posted by nbarclay
That is very often true in emergency situations, but in the long term, in non-emergency situations, what is best economically tends also to create the strongest military position.

Many people here would classify this as an emergency situation. More pointedly, losing 1 Shield to a Warrior is hardly going to reduce our overall economic position, even if compounded across all the Forest tiles we're likely to cut down.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Hm, this could turn into another economic debate. I'll trust that whatever we decide diplomatically, the Economists will provide the necessary support (within reason, of course).


Dominae

[nbarclay]

While making a quick trip to a store, I came up with an alternative idea for how to approach Vox about our current concerns. This approach is a bit more indirect and (I hope) a lot more good-humored, but it gets the same points across.

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

Since you have been so kind as to share with us passages from the One Book, we would like to share with you a passage from the Book of the Storm, specifically from Wisdom 3:1-2.

“Blessed are they who treat others as they would wish to be treated, for their rewards are respect and trust all the days of their lives.
But cursed are the hypocrites who demand from others that which they will not give themselves,
For the seeds of anger and distrust they sow may flower into the fruit of their destruction.”

Some of our more suspicious citizens have expressed concern that you may be in danger of violating that passage by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet blocking us from actually exercising that right. Such action would certainly be the height of hypocrisy if you intend to keep exploring in South Estonia. But it is our hope that those voices of fear have misunderstood Thaedus’s role, and that his job is only to keep out barbarians, not to block the legitimate work of peaceful explorers. We certainly would not want our new friends to incur the wrath of the Lord of Storms who watches over us all. (And truth be told, we also fear the actions of our own more warlike leaders who are using this situation as an excuse to demand a death penalty for any “spy” who approaches our territory.)

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by nbarclay
While making a quick trip to a store, I came up with an alternative idea for how to approach Vox about our current concerns. This approach is a bit more indirect and (I hope) a lot more good-humored, but it gets the same points across.

I like this very much! Better than the last idea (although that was a good one as well). After a message like this, I find it hard to believe that the Vox would continue on their path of exploration without knowing full well that they would be making an enemy of us, if they haven't already (I've been trying to keep track of what's going on lately since I've been gone, but you guys have been really busy! Makes it a bit tough to keep up!)

[Dominae]

Nathan, I like that one better too. Just a couple of modifications would make it perfect, IMO:

1. Addition of the following (hopefully) rhetorical questions: "Do you not hold the free exchange of gold, luxuries and technology in high regard? Are you willing to reject a chance at trade of these riches over a mere territorial dispute?"

This threatens their economic success, and not just their continued existence (truth be told, I'm sure they know they could survive quite a while even if there is a constant state of war). Maybe they will come to their sense and realise they could actually benefit from trading with us.

2. "... by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet preventing us from actually exercising that right by blocking the way to the fabled North Estonia".

The reason for the additional phrase is to hint that there might be more to explore in South Estonia that we've already explored (i.e. South Estonia is a big place, perhaps with neighbors). Without this phrase, the Voxians would be able to figure out we're alone on a average-sized landmass south of the isthmus.

Other than that, everything looks good. Nice effort on a more good-natured draft. Maybe our teams will be trading partners after all, and we'll just laugh at the hint of tensions early on.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Here's an edited version incorporating variants of some suggestions from Dominae.

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

Since you have been so kind as to share with us passages from the One Book, we would like to share with you a passage from the Book of the Storm, specifically from Wisdom 3:1-2.

“Blessed are they who treat others as they would wish to be treated, for their rewards are respect and trust all the days of their lives.
But cursed are the hypocrites who demand from others that which they will not give themselves,
For the seeds of anger and distrust they sow may flower into the fruit of their destruction.”

Some of our more suspicious citizens have expressed concern that you may be in danger of violating that passage by claiming to recognize our right to expand our horizons yet deliberately blocking our ability to enter the fabled lands of North Estonia in order to exercise that right. Such action would certainly be the height of hypocrisy if you intend to keep exploring in South Estonia. But it is our hope that those voices of fear have misunderstood Thaedus’s role, and that his job is only to keep out barbarians, not to block the legitimate work of peaceful explorers. We certainly would not want our new friends to incur the wrath of the Lord of Storms who watches over us all.

(And truth be told, we also fear the actions of our own more warlike leaders who are using this situation as an excuse to demand a death penalty for any “spy” who approaches our territory. Even more moderate elements are leery of scientific exchanges or other trade deals while the matter remains in doubt, and such a strain on relations cannot be good for either nation.)

[alva]

Just to nitpick,overreact and to go overboard in general , but:
If we call it by the their name 'south estonia', don't we recognize it as such???
Shouldn't we use our name???
Or any other, the name doesn't matter.
leery = sceptic ? (you are using difficult words today !!retrocicant, leery !!! )

[ManicStarSeed]

Hey I am back. I see that there seems to be some sort of consensus happening here. I assum no new messages have been sent and we are woking on getting one together huh? That last one by nbarclay seems to be of a softer tone, something we need. When do we want to gett this thing out?

Mss

[alva]

Europe should be coming online soon, give them a chance to comment too, then send it off.

(Vox has just played their turn anyway)

[ManicStarSeed]

nbarclay; over all it looks good. I have only a few comments..

Explore horizons rather than expand horizons

and...

Such people view such action as height of hypocrisy....

[ManicStarSeed]

I would like to take a stab at this thing in the morning (im tired and I just got home). I see the issues addresed and want us to put less threat and take it to cautious. I read the letter and it seems a thinly veiled threat. I would rather push the point on Thadeus, keep what nbarclay has gotten together, but I want to pad it out a little. Friendly it up and be clearer with our intentions and consequenses.

If It is decided that it can not wait, go ahead and send it. Just put something in it along the lines of you hogtieing me and stuck me in the closet because of the apparent BLATENT FAILURE in communication as the response they sent does not seem to exude the trust and coorperation that I was charged to develope.

Mss

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alva

Just to nitpick,overreact and to go overboard in general , but:
If we call it by the their name 'south estonia', don't we recognize it as such???
Shouldn't we use our name???

Since we never bothered to come up with a name, I have no problem with going along with theirs. But if someone has another idea they like better...

Or any other, the name doesn't matter.
leery = sceptic ? (you are using difficult words today !!retrocicant, leery !!! )

Wary or suspicious. (You might want to set a dictionary web page in your browser's "favorites" or whatever term your browser uses for it. I generally use www.merriamwebster.com. At least maybe I'm helping you build your English vocabulary skills. )

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
nbarclay; over all it looks good. I have only a few comments..

Explore horizons rather than expand horizons

and...

Such people view such action as height of hypocrisy....

"We of Vox Controli recognize your right to expand your horizons. We humbly request that you recognize ours." I deliberately used the same terminology they did.

I regard the idea that they are hypocritical if they demand a right to explore in the south while refusing to let us explore in the north as a matter of objective fact, not just as something that some people believe. Changing the wording to "Such people view" weakens the position. But the accusation only applies if they actually do shut us out.

Nathan