DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica

[Arrian]

Holy ****ing ****

We made a decission in the beginning of this game to strike the deals withthe best conditions for us. Right now we consider the deals with Legoland of greater benefit for us. This has nothing to do with your team but your prices aren't able to beat the ones that Legoland has set up so we trade with them.

As for the plans of a war, we must clarify that the last war with RP and GS was the last one that saw ND as an Agressor. We have splendid relationship to Legos and are not the ones to fall in the backs of our former allys even if it means, that we will not finish this game in a winning position.

Translation: ND will do tech deals based soley on what is cheapest for them, with no regard to geostrategic concerns. Further, ND considers Lego a friend and ally and refuses to fight them, even if this means Lego wins.

Game Over, essentially. Ok, perhaps I'm exaggerating, but if the #2 power refuses to do anything to hamper the #1 power... things are bad.

Without ND's support - even their tacit support - GoW cannot attack Legoland. Their only hope would be a surprise strike on ND, which though it *might* work, would most likely leave Lego in an even better position, and that's to the extent that Lego doesn't intervene.

Blah.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Either they are full of crap or they should not be playing games with anyone but their family.
The idea that you would not play to win seems very hard to grasp for me.

I would say I don't respect that , but so be it.

[asleepathewheel]

You play to win the game!

-h. edwards, ny jets.


christ almighty

[Dominae]

Hm? Their strategy is perfectly sound if you ask me.

1. They'll eventually have more land than Lego.
2. They spend less in research costs by buying techs from Lego (or anyone else).
3. Attacking any other team does not gain them much anymore due to Corruption.

They are, however, gambling on a few things:

1. Lego is playing the peaceful/Ferengi game, too.
2. Lego is not already too far ahead of them economically.
3. GoW is not hell-bent on destruction.

I would say all of the above apply.

---

Essentially, they're confident they can take Lego on in a full-economic struggle, so why bother attacking anyone? Let the minor powers worry about the Big Two, they say.

Our strategy now is to try to convince them they're wrong (difficult), or Lego of the same thing (easier, but still difficult). GoW needs to be in our pocket (or, better, our allies) ASAP. I'm not really sure how we're going to challenge ND or Lego, but by not fully cooperating with GoW we're sure to lose this thing.

We need to know if GoW is planning another war.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Dom,

I understand your points, but looking at things I don't think ND is even close to Lego economically, and I don't think they will be for a very long time. It could be they are hoping to have some sort of "build off" with Lego, figuring they can out-build Lego because they will be larger and control more luxuries (and possibly more resources).

If that's what they think, I think they're wrong. I think Lego will easily out-build them, unless something is done to weaken Lego. Given that, I find ND's stance quite frustrating.

So that leaves GoW. The only thing they can do is attack ND. They can't go hit Lego with ND in bed with Lego. So will they hit ND? I see problems with that. First, they're tight with ND (see the post-war city exchanges). Second, if it's a 1-on-1 fight, the two are pretty evenly matched (ND is bigger and probably better economically, but GoW has Leos), and the more time passes, the stronger ND gets vis-a-vis GoW. Lego might jump in to help ND, totally screwing GoW. What help can Stormia really provide?

It reminds me of that quote from Stalin to British negotiators in 1939 (who were trying to get him to ally with them versus Nazi Germany): "How many land divisions can you mobilize?" Response: "Two." Stalin: "I have 300." *laughs* Of course, Stalin was a fool for other reasons, but we won't get into that now.

We're in a real tight spot here, folks. And it appears the only thing we can do is cozy up to GoW. Excuse me while I puke. They're erratic and untrustworthy. Great.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Dom you are correct on their strat with the three points. The problem is they lost the gamble on #2 already and have no chance of peacefully winning IMO.

The thing is they said they don't care if they don't win and are happy to play to lose. I have no problem if they made the points you made and are willing to gamble.

Anyway our proposal could not hurt them if we are correct and would help them over come Lego if we are. It also did not call for them to engage in a war, only an excluse tech deal.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
I understand your points, but looking at things I don't think ND is even close to Lego economically, and I don't think they will be for a very long time.

This is debatable, right? So maybe ND thinks they can out-build Lego in the end, while we do not. Assuming ND is playing to win, maybe they need some convincing on this matter?

Also, remember that Lego (like everyone else) is only as strong as her tech allies. ND may be thinking that they're in a better position to call the shots in the tech race. At the moment they're okay with Lego being in the loop, but at some time they'll be able to cut them off (GoW is ND's good friend, and we've made our stance very clear that Lego is to be feared, so theoretically ND could call the shots).

In any case, there's no point in getting angry about this. Let's assume everyone is playing to win and see what we can do with what we're given. We need to react and adjust to this set of circumstances, not complain about them (even though they are admittedly frustrating).


Dominae

[DeepO]

Euh, guys... this is supposed to be the log, not the discussion thread

Anyway, next message to / from Darekill:

Thanks... just so you know, we tend to copy all GS messages into a log, and do not copy those messages to other teams.

If you want, you're free to copy my messages to yur forum as well, of course.

DeepO

Oh, no problem with that, since this isn't exactly a private message you have my permission to publish all my messages that are signed with
"Darekill Member of ND" in the GS private forum.
Only there, not in someone elses
But with this special message I wouldn't have a problem with that either...

Darekill Member of ND

[DeepO]

sent with the save:

Hello Neu Demogyptica,

I'm sorry for the delay, especially as the save has been played yesterday around noon. The problem is we're short on manpower right now, especially in our diplomatic department. Normally, asleepattheweel handles diplo with you guys, but he is very busy atm. We have been holding the save to try to handle this situation.

As you might have heard, we would love to trade you techs, and we just researched Steam. Are you interested in acquiring that from us, maybe even together with the 2 techs you will need to get to the industrial age? We are very open for suggestions, and were a bit disappointed you got the last tech from Lego, it was a bit of miscommunication between our teams it seems.

The reason why we would love to handle this quickly is that we would want to sponsor GoW to research quicker, to offset Lego's GA. The game would not be any fun if they are allowed to race ahead, and I know you are not concerned or bothered by this, but we are. Is there any chance that we can strike a deal now, or next turn? We would be interested in hard cash, lux, and tech to trade for. And I can assure you we will not hesitate to try to outbid Lego, if only we are given a chance to do so.

Please get back to us on this, and if at all possible keep sleepy in the communications as well, as I'm leaving on a conference Wednesday morning.

Many thanks,
DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Hello Cort Haus !


The Council of ND is rather quiet last time, thus I try an offer of a deal on my own.

About deals I remember for the idea to resolve a deal of 3 parties of GS, GOW and ND about Medicine by GOW and ND for Steampower by GS.

ND would support GOW for researching Medicine, and by this also support GS to get it and

by this ND would support GS to get Tech "Scientific Methods" more quickly and the Wonder "Theory of Evolution" and the 2 free techs from it, which would be given for free to ND, too.

The offer:
Medicine from ND and GOW for Steampower and the 2 free techs by built Wonder "Theory of Evolution" from GS.

What is your opinion?

Best Regards
Zayxus



Copy to DeepO

[Arrian]

DRAFT response to ND:

Zayxus,

Hello! Arrian here, responding on behalf of the Gathering Storm to your tech trade offer you sent to Cort Haus and DeepO.

As I understand it, you are asking for 4 technologies in exchange for your assistance in providing 1 (medicine). We do, of course, understand there is more to it than just that, given the Theory of Evolution and the "free" techs it provides (I say "free" because we do, after all, have to invest 600 shields to get those techs). Perhaps we can compromise a bit?

Here is our counteroffer:

1) You assist GoW in their medicine research, and they research at maximum speed.

2) GS gives ND and GoW Steam Power and Electricity. Steam Power is payment for medicine (though it is a more expensive tech) and Electricity is free in consideration for your help to our plans for ToE.

All technologies would carry 20-turn no-trade provisions. We would not pass on Medicine for 20 turns, and you would not pass on Steam Power or Electricity for 20 turns.

I very much hope you find this deal acceptable. If you do not, however, I am willing to consider any counteroffer you might have. I may not agree to it, but I'm always willing to consider it.

-Arrian

QUESTION: does ND still need any tech to get into the industrial age... like magnetism? Can we provide that too, to sweeten the pot?

EDIT: checked the last turn thread, and apparently ND still do not have magnetism. I'd say let's throw that at them too. Mag+Steam+Elect in exchange for ToE. Think of it that way.
-Arrian

[DeepO]

Sent with last save:

Hello Zayxus,

We apologize for not begin able to fulfill your wishes on helping GoW reach medicine early. For the maximum of 1000 gold they need, getting over 14000 beakers in return is a bit too much, I'm sure you can understand. We want to make you nice offers, but I guess you wouldn't accept us getting a tech like e.g. Nationalism from you for 200 gold.

Plus, the situation has changed: now that Vox received Nationalism as a free tech and not steam or medicine, the urgency has deminished. Lego can't get these for free, which leaves us enough gold to sponsor GoW ourselves, if they need any help.

That doesn't mean we don't want to trade with you. Previously, we had a deal in chat, in which ND would trade Nationalism, GoW would trade Medicine, and GS would trade Steam on an equal cost basis. Even if the value of Nationalism has now deminished (as Vox also has it), we would still be interested in a Nationalism - Steam trade. Otherwise, we would be happy to sell you Steam for gold or lux.

Are you interested in this, and if so, please make an offer. As long as the beaker to gold ratio is not 14 to 1, I'm sure we can trade.

Sincerely,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Sent with save 195:

Hello ND,

are you interested in acquiring Electricity from us? If so, please name your price.

Kind regards,
DeepO

[DeepO]

received and responded by e-mail:

Zayxus, please do so, we're eager to trade with you, and so far didn't have any opportunity yet

Hoping to hear from you soon,
DeepO



That could be only in next turn, I have to discuss this with people of ND first. Thank you.

Best regards
Zayxus

[DeepO]

e-mail again:

Yes, I understand, take your time on the board.

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence though, did we do something wrong in your eyes? If so, we are not aware of it, so please explain. We want to improve our relations with ND, we have wanted to do so since the end of our war... which is months behind us.

Kind regards,
DeepO

[e-mail edited out] wrote:

The people of ND have to decide about that deal in the next days.

Best regards
Zayxus
Trying to take this story with humor.