The Spartan Academy

[ManicStarSeed]

Oh also, I think that if we find a warrior/settler landing the ismuthis, We should do the unspeakable and take the stack, get two workers and pre-empt the war.

Mss

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Silence the Vox. I think that annialation prior to them hooking up iron is in order...

What are you going to annihilate them with ? Warriors ?
We cannot get past the jungle there with WC's what we will not have until hooking up the horses. We dont have warrior code to build archers, and anyway, there is looong way to the isthmus, our archers would be long obsolete before they reach there.

Just trying to make people understand that at the moment we cannot take them out. Better to build a good core first, then take them out with good planning, perhaps with hiring GoW to help if they are near Vox.

[Dominae]

Re: The defense of Stormland

Originally posted by Theseus
Vox doesn't know it yet, but they are simply improving Northern Stormland for us!!

I'm with Nathan that we should attempt to pursue a tech-trading partnership above all else. We may not yet want to conquer the North for quite some time. Assuming early war is inevitable, however:

Originally posted by Theseus
Next, while I still counsel a very aggressive stance re Vox, we have to be ready for a 'defense in depth.'

Definitely. War Chariots will actually serve us well in this game, acting as a deterrent to attacking our lands below the isthmus.

Here are some thoughts:

Originally posted by Theseus
Vox' scouts: It seems to me that in the worst case there will be 3 of their scouts wandering around by the time we can close the isthmus. That's not the end of the world.

Although 3 scouts would not threaten us significantly from a military point of view, the information they gather does (if only Civ3 were more realistic, we could cut them off on the way back home!). Thus if we got to war we need to destroy them as quickly as possible. They will no doubt take refuge in the mountain range, so we should organize to corner them somehow. Warriors is all we need for this particular plan.

Originally posted by Theseus
Key defensive positions: We need to put Warriors onto the mountains 88884 from EotS

Yes. With extra Warriors I was thinking to cover the entire northern range, that looks something like this:

x
--x--x
----x

This means that have to come out of the jungle onto Grassland tiles, where we can assault them with War Chariots.

Originally posted by Theseus
and 87 from Hurricane ASAP. We will also want a Spearmen on the mountain 88 from Hurricane,

87 is fine, and I was thinking 8888 instead of 88. This allows us further visibility, greater coverage of the Desert of Tears, and still leaves a safe path along the mountain range back to Hurricane.

Originally posted by Theseus
and finally a Spearmen on the forest 8877777 from EotS.

Not necessary if we block them as I diagrammed above. Really, we never want them to get into the left-side mountain range.

The other point about defense is that we will need to place War Chariots in strategic places out in the open because I doubt we'll want to spare time to Road all the Mountains. Where exactly I'm not thought about yet, but obviously it has to be 1 tile separation away from rough terrain (to surprise them and retreat, if necessary).

Originally posted by Theseus
City placement: As I see it, there are 3 key cities we need to get in place. The first would be as currently planned, on the desert tile 889 from EotS; this will expand our territory in such a way as to seriously interfere with Vox scouting, and later becomes a critical defense point (you'll see). The second should be revised to get us horses ASAP. The third whould then be revised to take advantage of the wheat.

I agree with the 3 sites, but not the order. The first city should be site 3 (close to the Wheat and Game), the second close to the Horses and the third up on the Desert. We will not be defending just yet, and we need to keep a healthy economy at this point, so the Wheat site is the best first choice. After that, I was toying with the idea of sending a Settler up into the Jungle, next to the Wheat. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Theseus
Research: BW, IW, Horseback Riding.

Unfortunately, this is the best plan if any skirmish turns into a full-blown war. By the way, Horseback Riding has Warrior Code as a prerequisite. I would much prefer clearing the way through the Jungle and using War Chariots the whole way (much more efficient).

Originally posted by Theseus
1. Warriors in key positions.
2. Spearmen in key defensive positions.
3. WCs for 'point' defense (worst case).
4. Wolfpacks of 2-3 WCs for each of our two major kill zones: north of the desert city and on the grassland SE of Spinebreaker.
5. Swordsmen (a lot of'em) to clear the way moving north.
6. Horsemen to cross the jungle.

Re: 3. Why is this "worst case". I think this is our best strategy.

Re: 4. Might need one more somewhere in the northern desert.

Re: 6. In addition to the point I made above, I would prefer just building War Chariots.

Note that things become a lot easier offensively if we do control that jungle with a city. Again, I think we should seriously consider this option for our fourth or fifth city.

Originally posted by Theseus
We need to decide how long to try to hold the 2 isthmus tiles.

Until we see overwhelming force.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
That is it people.

Silence the Vox. I think that annialation prior to them hooking up iron is in order...

Come up with a specific plan that has good odds of working without destroying our economy (and hence our ability to compete with everyone but Vox) in the process, and I'll listen. Otherwise, this falls in the "I wish we could" category as far as I'm concerned.

[nbarclay]

The problem with building a jungle city right now is that WC's can't defend it. We need a reasonable force of swordsmen for its defense before we build such a city.

I don't like the idea of going for horsemen. Swordsmen do better than horsemen fighting in jungles, and if we control the situation enough for the fighting to be on the other side of the jungle, we can road through the jungle for our WCs.

Nathan

[Dominae]

If we place the jungle city directly North of the Wheat, we only need to improve 2 Jungle tiles to get our War Chariots through. Plus, we could put Spearmen in the 3 defensible tiles just North if it (3 Jungle, 1 Mountain), hopefully blocking any attack force for a short while, as follows.

Really, the sooner we do this the better, as they will probably get the same idea. I admit that defending against their Immortals would be a problem in this scenario. Perhaps we could use Warrior Code after all (not a complete loss, as it is on the way to Monarchy, too).


Dominae

[nbarclay]

I'm thinking WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into, although I'm not quite 100% positive. The key to using WCs defensively is to have a "kill zone" that the enemy cannot enter without being hit by WCs. Assuming I'm right, at a minimum, in addition to getting WCs into the city, we would have to have roads in enough tiles that they cannot get to the city without exposing themselves to attack. (And unless the tiles are actually cleared, if even one of their units survives our preemptive strike, they can pillage a road to provide a WC-proof path to our city.) For anything resembling the near future, swordsmen would be a much better defense for such a city.

Nathan

[DeepO]

leave it to the army to be trigger happy!

Nathan, WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into.

Re: the cost of all of this: wouldn't a few (or 1) worker(s) heading North to road some jungle tiles be way more cost efficient? why do we need slowmovers when we have a UU we can use? If going for an all-out war, wasting our GA isn't the problem anyway.

I agree on the defensive position of the desert city (#1), and for that reason only could we decide to build it early. But, it's a lost city, as there is growth, but no production. It would save us 1 turn on roads. But, we can't settle it before the first Vox scout comes near the Western mountain ridge, so I would also vote to put it at 3rd place from now, after either the second pump (out of economical concern), or the horse city. Horses should be fun, but building reg WCs not, so it won't matter if we settle it first or second. (aside from blocking Vox to scout our Southern part, which can be a serious gain as well)

Come to think of it, horse city first, then #3 as an extra pump, then #1 (887 from EotS, not 88) next.

Oh, and one road onto a mountain should be enough, if we block access to the mountains with warriors.

Don't think I don't like the discussion, it is the job of the Spartan academy to come up with war plans. But, as a diplomat, I'm hoping on some trades first, and war later. Vox has to go, but leave them time to improve Northern Stormland, and try to benefit from it. After that, let the Storm hordes rain destruction on their lands, in a short, decisive war, and not a neverending onslaught. Don't forget other teams will race ahead when they cooporate while we are busy fighting wars.

DeepO

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm thinking WCs cannot attack into terrain they can't move into, although I'm not quite 100% positive.

As DeepO already said, they can't. I learned that the hard way, in my first attempt with Deity, about 9 months ago or so. I was Egypt () and had horses hooked up, but no iron. Greece was my neighbor and had iron in a border city. I built a stack of 10 WCs and took the city with astounding ease, with only 2 WCs loss, although there were 2 Hoplites in. Now the sh!t hit the fan... I overlooked, that the city was completely jungle, in their half, and had no road yet. I had nothing but my WC stack in it. Alex attacked me with all he had, Archers, Swordsmen and Horsemen and I couldn't even fight back. I lost almost all my WCs till I got 2 Spearmen in. One turn before I wanted to make peace, Alex allied up with Hammu (the other side of my empire, which was seriously weakened) and the game was basically over.

[Dominae]

As fast-movers, WCs can enter the city in the jungle in one turn, and exit the next, without fearing attack. The city in question only needs to clear 2 Jungle tiles to make this work. The city will not be defended by WCs, just serve as a safe passage to cut off Immortal reinforcements up North. Walls and Veteran Spearmen (and a Swordsmen or two) would be responsible for holding the fort.

I'm not completely sold on the idea, but if we do not create a presence up there, we're going to get walked all over on in the jungle. Our Swordsmen/Spearmen combo do not stand a chance against their Immortal/Spearmen combo.

Obviously the best defense is WCs in the Desert of Tears. I'm just trying to figure out ways of pushing our border forward a little, to make things easier in the long run. Even if we can defend well in the open ground, taking down their fortifications in the jungle will be hell.

I cannot stress enough how site 3 is the best choice for our next Settler. The Horse city will not be help our economy very much, and we're still not ready to build WCs just yet. With the great production and growth at site 3, we'll get a good economy going. This is the top priority, regardless of our situation with Vox (who, I might mention, are still a ways away).


Dominae

[DeepO]

From a military point of view, site #7 is better then #3. Think of it: we can settle it before a scout comes near, and if they are going to respect our territory, they don't see our South, and don't know if we have just a few tiles there, or a landbridge over the timeline to a whole other country. Plus, it's on a hill, so easier to defend. No, I changed my mind the past few minutes, site #7 is definately the first one we need to settle, and the horses are only a nice surpluss.

DeepO

[Dominae]

DeepO, sorry to point out the obvious, but site 7 provides a Game resource, while site 3 benefits from both Game and Wheat. Economically, there is no question as to which is better. Therefore the decision rests on whether or not we need the Horses that fast. I say no. Furthermore, by the time our Worker puts a Road on the Horses, we'll have both cities up anyway.

Concerning building a city in either desert location as defense, we have to keep in mind that this transforms our fluid defense into a static one, because we have to defend that city (with at least 1 Warrior, probably more if Vox shows up with 2 or more). I prefer taking care of the scouts, then moving up afterwards.


Dominae

[Harovan]

There's a point to settle #7 first. As DeepO already mentioned, assuming they respect our borders, they won't see our south and without this knowledge, they don't know if there is another civ we could ally with or if we're alone, "in the bag".

This can get very important if it comes to war!

[Dominae]

Yes, that can be important. More important that a rapidly growing economy? IMO, no. In any case, we're very close to getting rid of those scouts ourselves, are we not? They'll never get down there, if things remain icy between us.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Dominae, don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of growing fast. But what do you want: grow fast unsecurely, or leave them in the dark, and be able to take your time growing? If we settle #7 first, we don't need any military in the South... the military advantage clearly outweighs the economical one. Don't forget, BTW, that only 5 or 6 turns later, we get to #3 anyway... 5 or 6 turns is nothing when compared to the security it provides us.

If this was SP, I would agree with you, but it is not... and Vox is a risk. We all agreed that we should keep their scouting to a minimum, well, here's our chance. Leave them in that dark up to the point where they either declare war, or get a galley that far South.

DeepO