The Spartan Academy

[Harovan]

I wholeheartly agree. Diplomacy is about to fail, at least I see no other means to force them, than to threat them militarily. 4 more warriors could either block further success south, or even kill the intruders. Our 2 warriors at the isthmus could be able to take it, if necessary.

I would regret a war, but more I would regret, if they made fools out of us.

[alva]

- Indirect communication with Vox: Someone with a 'poly relationship with one of there team send a PM saying something like "Theseus and Arrian want to go after you HARD... are you CRAZY??!!"

I don't know if he would want to do this, but NYE is rather close with Jon Miller...
(and as is at the moment not really connected anymore, he would the perfect person to do this)

[Meshelic]

I agree with Theseus's ideas. Lets definetely research Warrior Code immediately and brace for war with the Voxians.

As Gathering Storm we won't take any guff from anybody!

meshelic

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I would regret a war, but more I would regret, if they made fools out of us.

Listen to yourself. You're making this personal instead of calculating strategy, and I hate to think how many military disasters have come about as a result of that kind of thinking.

They aren't making fools out of us if they get our map now but we take their empire later. They're the fools of that tale for getting so caught up in trying to secure a short-term advantage that they ignore the dangers of making a long-term enemy.

If we calculate that the long-term advantages of taking out Vox's scouts outweigh the long-term advantages of ignoring them and focusing on building up our economy, fine. But we need to do it for the right reasons, not just because they are making us angry.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Warrior code now, tempting as it is, would be a bad idea. Yes, archers could make short work of the two invaders, but we can do the job with warriors when we have enough. And by the time archers could get to the Voxian border, Vox is likely to have immortals. The distance is simply too great for an archer rush to work properly.

Further, a major war this early (and especially over such a vast distance) would be an exercise in mutual suicide. Whoever wins between us and Vox, the real winners would be the civs that build up their economies while we and Vox slug it out.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Hm, nice debate raging here! Theseus, nice to have you back among the active members of Gathering Storm (coming back with a military bang, no less!). Currently, I'm on the fence, but I hope to share some wisdom:

1. Can we give peace a chance, at least for a couple of turns? We're screaming for blood; the Voxians may be willing to talk. They've got an advantage, to be sure, be let us not get too angry because things are momentarily not going our way. Since we need to produce some more Warriors anyway, our economy should not suffer from deferring judgement on battle.

2. Warrior Code is definitely debatable. On the one hand we win our short-term skirmish with the Voxians, and set ourselves up for Monarchy in case the fighting continues. On the other hand, we could very be researching at tech we might not in fact need for quite a while (Horseback Riding, bah!). I personally vote against.

3. I believe we can put up a strong front, yet willing to be diplomatic. I have no problem being "made a fool of", as long as we come out on top. Playing a Deity teaches this lesson (and we're way beyond Deity here!).

4. Perhaps we should seriously sending our second or third hard-built Settler on a long trek up to the isthmus (or near to it). With a pop-rushed Temple and nearly all our defensive forces, we could hold that area until we decide to strike. The only problem is, of course, the long transit time. Perhaps we could think of our bonus Settler as being the one that "went North to fend off Vox", even though this is not in fact true.

5. Once we repel the 2 offending Warriors (with Warriors of our own, I suggest), we will feel a lot better. So they control the isthmus, we've got an economic engine and land aplenty. The only real problem is trades with the unknown third-party. Maybe they will not trade techs after all, and if they do, we're really only afraid of Immortals (and Monarchy) until a while from now.


Dominae

[alva]

It is a good debate, isn't it

1. Can we give peace a chance, at least for a couple of turns?

How about trying to bring in some neutral (respected) third party.
Catt for example?


One of the reasons, I think Vox is set on exploring our territory(anything below Neck) is that their land is (much?)smaller then what we claim.
The territory we see as ours is rather big, certainly 1/7 of all land availlable. Maybe even more if it is a 80%water map.
We of course want all of it, and see the isthmus as a natural boundry... maybe not so from Voxes point of view.

I still stand firm on that the warriors must leave. Even if this means a brief skirmish.
This could give us a way to blow their GA is despotism btw. I 'd rather would have had they would use it fighting someone else.

Actually, they not being religious could be a big advantage to us.
Sir Ralph, could you check each(too early now, but later) turn to see when/if they go into anarchy.
That would be a good time hit them.(and even a better time to let them blow their GA)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alva
How about trying to bring in some neutral (respected) third party. Catt for example?

I like it. But we need Catt to come online and make a decision within the next couple days...it just might not happen.

Originally posted by alva
One of the reasons, I think Vox is set on exploring our territory(anything below Neck) is that their land is (much?)smaller then what we claim.

Right on. Maybe their third or fourth city will end up across the isthmus. Nothing we could do about that, so no reason to get angry.

Originally posted by alva
I still stand firm on that the warriors must leave. Even if this means a brief skirmish.

Yes.

Originally posted by alva
This could give us a way to blow their GA is despotism btw. I 'd rather would have had they would use it fighting someone else.

By the time we're fighting Immortals, we'll have War Chariots. We'll lead them into our lands (below the jungle) and destroy. *** for tat, GA for GA. A waste, IMO.


Dominae

[alva]

Wasting GA's

By the time we're fighting Immortals, we'll have War Chariots. We'll lead them into our lands (below the jungle) and destroy. *** for tat, GA for GA. A waste, IMO.

Hmm, not necessarily(allthough to far ahead), we could blow theirs, hold them off for awhile without WC(until we reach mon/rep). Then have WC to start ours and even go to offensive couter.
(atm, the shortest route from EotS to Thadeus is 16 tiles/turns)

[Harovan]

If we calculate that the long-term advantages of taking out Vox's scouts outweigh the long-term advantages of ignoring them and focusing on building up our economy, fine. But we need to do it for the right reasons, not just because they are making us angry.

We have yet to survive to get a benefit from that "long term advantage". So far I see you block any attempt to build up a military. Extra warriors? No! Warrior code? No! We are astoundingly weak, our defense is thin, just like we're playing the AI. If 3-4 Immortals would show up right now at the isthmus, we'd be in serious trouble. And they probably already have iron working.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Extra warriors?

Yes!

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Warrior code?

No!

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
If 3-4 Immortals would show up right now at the isthmus, we'd be in serious trouble. And they probably already have iron working.

Realistically, by the time 3-4 Immortals show up at the isthmus (forget anywhere close to our cities), we should have Horses hooked up and at least 3/2 as many War Chariots. This should provide adequate defense for our homeland. Regarding controlling the isthmus, we have to get used to the fact that we have no good way of controlling it right now. The best is Archers, and that's pretty weak, if you ask me. In any case, controlling the isthmus will prove exceedingly difficult if 3-4 Immortals show up. Time to find alternative courses of action.

If war breaks out, I say deal with their 2 Warriors using our own, stay calm, keep REXing and hook up Horses with our fourth city (in that order). The isthmus will have to wait. The only good way of dealing with the isthmus at this point is to ask them to move aside.


Dominae

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dominae

Extra warriors?

Yes!

According to Nathan, no. It would hurt our growth.

Realistically, by the time 3-4 Immortals show up at the isthmus (forget anywhere close to our cities), we should have Horses hooked up and at least 3/2 as many War Chariots. This should provide adequate defense for our homeland.

We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom.

Regarding controlling the isthmus, we have to get used to the fact that we have no good way of controlling it right now.

They can have it. They discovered it first, so be it. What buggers me, are their scouts.

[alva]

I do know one thing, If I were VOX and faith put me next to GS. I would go all or nothing using Immortals, GA and anyother dirty trick I knew.
(and belief me, that others would overlook a lot of their actions if they would succeed)

They can have it. They discovered it first, so be it. What buggers me, are their scouts.

Same here, more then not being able to scout ourself.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom.

I suppose that is a possibility, but highly unlikely. We cannot afford to prepare for every nightmare scenario. I'm going to bet they have 3 Warriors, Ceremonial Burial and are completing a second city. If they do show up with 2 Immortals ASAP (say, 20-25 turns from now), we still have enough time to muster War Chariots (heck, we can pop-rush the suckers!). Just because they're being obstinate does not mean they're powerful.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
They can have it. They discovered it first, so be it. What buggers me, are their scouts.

My thoughts exactly. I'm prepared to attack them over those scouts, if diplomacy fails. We'll manage to repulse their 2 Warriors, and we'll be on guard while we continue REXing. Really, there is no need for a wartime economy; we're just fighting a skirmish here.


Dominae

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Dominae
I'm prepared to attack them over those scouts, if diplomacy fails. We'll manage to repulse their 2 Warriors, and we'll be on guard while we continue REXing. Really, there is no need for a wartime economy; we're just fighting a skirmish here.

I agree entirely. The scouts have to go. Perhaps it is even sufficient to show up with 2 warriors around each of them and the diplomats could say "withdraw them, or they're toast". Perhaps this would convince them. I saw in the other thread, that the economists are working over plans to build these warriors and not hurt our growth too much. That is good. The situation was unbearable, we are too weak for a MP game. Good, that this is about to change.