The Spartan Academy

[Dominae]

Sir Ralph, check out Nathan's revised message proposal to Vox (in the Vox Diplo thread). It might do the trick without any bloodshed. However, we would still have to live with Warriors in "our" land, since we're only asking to cross the isthmus (a fair trade, IMO, which actually favors us if they've contacted anyone else).


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


We have yet to survive to get a benefit from that "long term advantage". So far I see you block any attempt to build up a military. Extra warriors? No! Warrior code? No! We are astoundingly weak, our defense is thin, just like we're playing the AI. If 3-4 Immortals would show up right now at the isthmus, we'd be in serious trouble. And they probably already have iron working.

Even one immortal showing up at the isthmus right now is a technical impossibility. There are only two ways to build immortals: build them from scratch or upgrade warriors in a city with a barracks. There is no way they could have built three warriors, a settler, and a barracks in their capital in 20 turns. And they haven't had time to build an immortal from scratch, even if their capital just happened to be on a hill with iron.

Right now we have two enemy warriors in our territory, and any other forces that might try to hit us (even if they have anything they can spare from garrison duty) are at least 16 turns away. So I see no reason to panic.

With diplomacy appearing to be failing, I am happy to support plans to build additional warriors quickly in Hurricane, where the impact of stunting growth is relatively small. What I truly dislike is compromising the efficiency of our settler pump, because the long-term economic cost of that is far higher.

On further reflection, my reaction to Warrior Code may be biased a bit by the fact that I'm so used to playing SP. Against AIs, Warrior Code might about as well not be part of the path to Monarchy because in any situation where a player wants Monarchy, he can almost certainly trade for it. But on further reflection, we may be stuck researching Warrior Code ourselves on the way to Monarchy, in which case doing it now rather than later might not be as bad an idea as I first thought. On the other hand, once Grog gets on the hill, there should be at least one tile another civ could reach where the units could see each other and establish contact, so I'm not quite ready to give up on the possibility of trading for Warrior Code. (That's especially true if whoever Vox made contact with would like for us to guide them in.)

My response to a suggestion to research Bronze Working and Iron Working would be a lot more positive (now that diplomacy is going so badly). Iron Working would give us units that could take on immortals with a much better prospect of success. But I haven't sorted out the various factors including possible trades and the desire for Monarchy enough to feel ready to make a specific proposal yet.

We do need to keep track of how much military power Vox might reasonably be expected to have (and of their position on the power graph) and be prepared so that if they come at us with immortals, we can come up with an adequate force to meet them by the time they arrive. But we also need to make good use of how much advance warning we'll get to help us grow our economy more for sustained long-term power.

Nathan

[alva]

something else, and this far into the future..

Having a city on isthmus hill or next to it, would be nice for our sailors too.
Going from the east side to the west side without going around the cape could be a very strategical advantage.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

We got a settler from a hut. They could have got iron working from one. If that happened early (maybe even in turn 1) and they set their research to 0%, all they'd need is a barracks in the 2nd city, built on iron. Yea, ineffecient, but efficient or not, this way they could surprise us with a couple of upgraded Immortals very soon. And to get a tech from the first hut is nothing that happens too seldom.

Civ 3 huts aren't random like they are in Call to Power. They give the lowest-cost tech (or one of them) that you (1) have the prerequisites for, (2) don't have yet, and (3) aren't researching. (At least that's what I've heard, and I haven't seen anything since I heard it, admittedly not too long ago, that would contradict the idea. Has anyone else run into a verified counterexample?) Vox's having gotten Iron Working from a hut may not be quite theoretically impossible, but it's close.

I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of having a couple immortals show up just a few turns after they have time to build a barracks, though.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Nathan, AFAIK you're right on getting techs from huts. They can have gotten ceremonial burial from it, which is the 2nd tech in line after pottery in my experience. So either they received pottery too (this should be known to us in a few turns), or they were researching it. Otherwise, they traded it from a third party. There is no way they could have gotten IW, as the wheel and alphabet would come before it. It is beyond reason they have gotten 4 techs from huts...

Again, they are either very close to IW, or have just discovered it last turn with normal commerce, I thought that calculation was generally agreed upon. And, this would mean they started researching it from 4000 BC (but this is possible). I think they settled their second city before knowing where, and if they had access to iron. They could be lucky, but more likely they do not have iron within their borders already.

So, in the end, they do not have any immortals now, and will probably reach the Neck with 1 immortal in 10 turns at the fastest (with forestchopping). By that time we can have 3 warriors there.

Further, the neck is theirs, in my mind, they were the first to cross it, they are obviously closer (Grog lost very few turns in reaching it), and we can't seriously attack it at this stage. We could block it so they can't put a city down there, and we should foresee this possibility as it will seriously enhance their defense (set a city on that hill, and all our troops need to crush it before being able to flow in their land).

Other things: in future tests, I certainly am going for more warriors, and the fastest possible access to WCs. Archers, however, is something I don't like deviating to. We don't need the tech now, we can't rush them anyhow (too far), and what resources is concerned we would be better off getting a worker to the jungle asap in order to be able to cross it. I don't want to build 1 archer if we have a potent UU we could use.

research: I am more and more inclined to beeline to mapmaking, so these kind of blocking and crossing problems are no issue anymore.

DeepO

[alva]

set a city on that hill

How expensive would it be to get a settler up there asap? Is it something worth considering? It would save a lot of hassle, and we would be turning the table on VOX.
(they will be pissed, but who cares..)

I suspect VOX will send there next one pretty soon to join the warrior, but stil.

[DeepO]

taking into account we need protection, and that city is totally corrupt (certainly as it has no road), it would be very costly for us. It would basically mean we lose the advantage of our free settler. but for them things are different: it wouldn't be totally corrupt, and it can get there faster. they will build a city, in my guess on their side of the Neck, so that we can't cross the Isthmus without stepping in their borders. This then can be seen as an act of war.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Actually, I regard having their warrior block the isthmus as more of an act of war than I would regard having a city block it. With a city, they would have a clear political claim on the area and a strong reason not to want military units there (not to mention the technical impossibility of one civ crossing another's city without attacking). Without a city, the land is not within anyone's borders, and if they view land not in anyone's borders as free for everyone to explore, they have no business using such land to block our exploration.

Nathan

[DeepO]

That's true... it is way more aggresive. But only politically speaking, as a city would even be a better block then any unit.

Besides, for protection it would be best to build a city on the hill, but for the game, of course it is better to settle the bridge itself. That way, galleys can pass it, a huge advantage later on.

DeepO

[alva]

Wouldn't you be able to do so on the hill too?

the galley thing I mean.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by alva
Wouldn't you be able to do so on the hill too?

the galley thing I mean.

Yes, of course, plus, it would gain a bigger defense bonus. I also played with the thought to plant a city there, although later, if the place is still available.

[DeepO]

Woops... sorry about that. Of course it is also possible from the hill.

DeepO

[Theseus]

The defense of Stormland

First off, we don't live in no stinkin' South Estonia!

Vox doesn't know it yet, but they are simply improving Northern Stormland for us!!

Next, while I still counsel a very aggressive stance re Vox, we have to be ready for a 'defense in depth.'

Here are some thoughts:

Vox' scouts: It seems to me that in the worst case there will be 3 of their scouts wandering around by the time we can close the isthmus. That's not the end of the world. We should have each one shadowed, and where possible our Warriors should stay on mountains.

Key defensive positions: We need to put Warriors onto the mountains 88884 from EotS and 87 from Hurricane ASAP. These will later be replaced by Spearmen. We will also want a Spearmen on the mountain 88 from Hurricane, and finally a Spearmen on the forest 8877777 from EotS.

City placement: As I see it, there are 3 key cities we need to get in place. The first would be as currently planned, on the desert tile 889 from EotS; this will expand our territory in such a way as to seriously interfere with Vox scouting, and later becomes a critical defense point (you'll see). The second should be revised to get us horses ASAP. The third whould then be revised to take advantage of the wheat.

Research: BW, IW, Horseback Riding.

What I want to get toward is the following 'phases' of defense / offense:

1. Warriors in key positions.
2. Spearmen in key defensive positions.
3. WCs for 'point' defense (worst case).
4. Wolfpacks of 2-3 WCs for each of our two major kill zones: north of the desert city and on the grassland SE of Spinebreaker.
5. Swordsmen (a lot of'em) to clear the way moving north.
6. Horsemen to cross the jungle.

A couple of further points:

* This will require a lot of units, and a lot of gold.

* We need to decide how long to try to hold the 2 isthmus tiles.

[Theseus]

Also, we are going to want a military road heading directly north along the river, to the mountain chokepoint.

[ManicStarSeed]

That is it people.

Silence the Vox. I think that annialation prior to them hooking up iron is in order...


Granted we must have a strong defense as well.


Mss