The Spartan Academy

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
There's a point to settle #7 first. As DeepO already mentioned, assuming they respect our borders, they won't see our south and without this knowledge, they don't know if there is another civ we could ally with or if we're alone, "in the bag".

This can get very important if it comes to war!

Sir Ralph is very much right here.
Assuming that Vox really honors our borders, as they said. But i think its worth a try.

[Randolph]

I was still kind of hoping that we would stop them before they even got to our cities, but if not building city #7 would be a good way to cut our losses. Ideally I think #3 would be the best city to build next, but I would like to keep some map knowledge all our own.

[DeepO]

For the moment, I think Vox is going to honor our borders. Not doing it would be an outright declaration of war, and they know it.

I agree that those delay tactics will not be terribly good diplo-wise, but we can have an explanation, and I don't mind sending it to them. They will understand, as I'm quite certain they have a similar problem. We simply tell them that we want to keep our warriors in a position where they can reach any city first, instead of the scout, so that extra protection is given to these cities, and scouts remain scouts, instead of opportunistic warriors.

Telling them this will mean they will be even more inclined to follow the scout, instead of following the terrain like they would do otherwise (there is a very good chance that tim will follow the mountain range towards EotS anyhow, so we don't need to delay anything), but I can't imagine they'll get pissed about it. They will be in the same situation if they allow Grog through: they don't have adequate defenses, so need to shadow Grog so he can't reach a city.

BTW, if we are going to build the horse city, the road building can save us a few turns (which I think we'll need, as we can't hinder Tim everywhere), and makes it possible to get irrigation to the horses fast. Before that, the city doesn't grow much. And, I'd suggest to make another barracks city our of it (possibly after a worker), we won't have any defense until Hack moves there, followed by Tim, at which point all our cities are defended by one warrior only. EotS and #3 should focus on expansion, but we need some protection fast as well (a WC, which changes names every few turns, to parade in front of Vox would also be a very good idea. If we don't overdo it, they may think we have double the amount of WCs as we really have, which lets us focus on expansion)

DeepO

[Randolph]

Originally posted by DeepO
(a WC, which changes names every few turns, to parade in front of Vox would also be a very good idea. If we don't overdo it, they may think we have double the amount of WCs as we really have, which lets us focus on expansion)

Oh, I like this ; I have little doubt that they'll buy it if we keep it realistic.

[DeepO]

They sure will buy it, but we need to make sure it is not an incentive for them to start building up massive forces to counter us. Because once they figure out we were bluffing, those troops are certain to march onto our cities.

DeepO

[Arrian]

My first thought upon logging on this morning was WC, archers, kill.

Then I thought some more, and was thinking BW, IW.

Then I thought some more, realizing as others did that WC is a prereq for Monarchy.

Archers are crappy units, it's true, but they kill warriors pretty reliably, do not require upgrade cash to work (as against a warrior -> swordsman plan), and would not blow our GA.

Then I thought some more.

Now I'm thinking that early war with Vox just to kill two scouting warriors is an overreaction. I do think we need more warriors to deal with possible attack. I also think we need spearmen, so I want BW as our next tech. If they will trade it, fine. If not, we research it at reduced cost.

I say we settle the best terrain ASAP, which means city #3, IIRC.

Our scout warriors should block our side of the chokepoint and fortify. If they agree to Nathan's proposal, great - we can go meet another civ. If not, it's a standoff.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, are you still thinking, and might I be able to pursuade you in settling #7 (onto the hill, next to the Horse) first? Indeed, it's not nearly as good as #3 (which will be a superb site, no matter what we're going to do with it). It would cut off all exploration of Vox scouts, and I have taken the standing of "what the hell, let them scout if it makes them happy, we can't help it anyway" a while ago.

This doesn't mean we have to give up all our secrets, and we risk that once a warrior is on the South of our capital, it will remain there, pushing us to defend all our cities, instead of only the Northern ones. It's just a manner of keeping our defenses tight, and not smear them out over the whole continent... always a good strat, in every situation.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Now I'm thinking that early war with Vox just to kill two scouting warriors is an overreaction. I do think we need more warriors to deal with possible attack. I also think we need spearmen, so I want BW as our next tech. If they will trade it, fine. If not, we research it at reduced cost.

BTW, I agree here: waging war for those 2 scouts is an overreaction at this point, certainly because we don't have the resources to do it before they scouted what they really need to know. They will find the spinebreaker mountain ridge leading up to our capital, and those 2 things are all they need... after that they can scout whatever they want (on the North), it won't change anything. They will have found a way to more or less safely attack us in the heart of our country, and will use that route... we know there is no other. But of course, they need to declare war first, which I think they won't do easily...

DeepO

[Arrian]

Hmm... always thinkin' my friend.

I dunno about building on weaker terrain to limit their exploration. I do see your point about one of their guys hanging around down south and forcing us to defend from that direction, though.

Frankly, I can't see the screenshots, but as I understand it, #7 will still have a game tile to work with, yes? I guess that, plus earlier horse access and the tactical concerns make up for not getting the wheat.

#7 is fine by me. It should build 1-2 warriors, a worker, and then join the REX program.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Actually, it can use a game tile, but only after #3 is settled (the game is right next to #3). Its terrain is not perfect: it has the horse on plains, 3 other plains, and one unshielded grass. With irrigation, it can become a decent site, but it will never be perfect (although if we get into a GA under despotism, it will be one of the best).

Which is one of the reasons I proposed to have the worker sent to road towards the horses (which will be finished the turn after the city is settled, I think), after that the road can help in getting irrigation to that city immediately. This same irrigation path can then be used to get irrigation to #3, because if we want t a pump, we'll need water there too

DeepO

[Arrian]

Oh, in that case, sorry, I favor #3 first then. Blocking their explorers isn't justification enough for building a city on poor terrain (plains + unshielded grassland is poor terrain until it gets developed). That's sacrificing production and growth for a (IMO minor) tactical advantage. This also assumes they will honor our borders like they say they will.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, the difference is only 6 turns at most, #3 will be settled right after that. But okay, np.

I just found out another tactical advantage (if, of course, Vox will respect our borders): it will block the only lookout point from outside our borders into EotS. By settling #7, we will take the mountain into our cultural borders on the diagonal(44) of EotS city view. That mountain would still be a good place to set up defense, but that can wait until we have an abbundance of warriors (which we don't atm. EotS will even need the lux slider to remain happy when it reaches size 4)

DeepO

[Randolph]

Assuming we build two settlers in a row, I definitely say build #7 first. By the time EotS actually gets to building settlers it will be pumping them out every 5 turns or so (IIRC), which IMHO is an acceptable delay in exchange for blocking Vox. If the delay was 10-15 turns I'd agree with Arrian, but with a pump like EotS will be I say #7.

edit: gerrr, looks like DeepO had the same idea a big quicker

[Arrian]

Hmm. If settler #2 (designated for city site #3, heh) is chop-assisted, it may pop out pretty darn quickly.

Then again, look at it from a strict economic standpoint, and sites 3 and 4 are the best 1-2 punch. I hate the idea of allowing their friggin' 2 exploring warriors hamper our development!

What does Nathan think of this?

-Arrian

[DeepO]

We're getting there... Arrian starts to argue for it, instead of against it

While we're doing it: think of the tactical and diplomatic possibilities of not letting Vox know our land ends there. They have no idea of the fertility of it, nor how many cities can be built there, nor if there is a landbridge to the other side of the map, etc. That alone would be enough reason for me, the 4 cities who don't need defense are only a nice extra. A very nice extra.

DeepO