The ND threat.

[DeepO]

- oh, another idea, but I'm not sure on this: maybe we can ask GoW to deal with us for the tech we normally would get from ND.

DeepO

[Theseus]

Originally posted by DeepO
Another far-fetched idea is that we declare that we are from now on known as Greenpeace, and as we are denied uranium, we set out to occupy all the uranium sources in the world, no matter in who's territory they lay. No cities or so, only the sources. This would mean that neither ND nor GoW can build nukes or the SS, so a direct disadvantage to GoW.

NO NUKES!! NO NUKES!!

That is seriously funny.

And, yes, Krill, nye was right in guessing that I was being nice to the old grouch.

[DeepO]

With a bit more thought into it, I think the Bob-for-Bobians treaty should be tackled like that: do not hint at invading Bob (deny nor confirm, just keep silent), but ask if bombing ND cities on Bob would also be considered a reason for GoW to declare war. Maybe say a bit more, like that it could be one of our options, but we would like to hear their thoughts before commiting to building up our carrier fleet. And maybe also ask them to keep quiet, as we don't want to run into fighter or jet squadrons if we can avoid it.

What I like about that, are 2 things:
- GoW knows we would be planning something sneaky, and have already mentioned us invading ND. By giving them reason to think we want to bomb them as we don't think invasion is possible, they might forget the more bolder option.
- If they agree to this, it is a lot easier to start negotiating with them once we invade ND. I don't think anyone will think that we can hold ground on Bob, even if we only face ND alone. So, at the time of invasion, we could ask GoW to postpone their war on us, as we only want to hurt ND, and will leave the ground undefended.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Basically, I think we've got to acknowledge that in going to war with ND, we are handing the game to GoW. While winning might still be possible, it will require an even bigger miracle than everything we've done so far taken together. And we're running out of time. So, war to ND means we can end second at best.

But I'm okay with that. We are forced anyway, and without action we would end 3rd. All we can do is to try to advance one place in ranking.

And you never know what miracle is going to happen, look at where Lego is now

DeepO

[Aeson]

Whether or not GoW wants us on Bob isn't really a concern to us. If we go after ND on Bob (and have success), GoW will win. We can't expect to be able to compete with GoW even if we pull off the invasion of ND perfectly.

--------------------

Make sure GoW is aware that ND had Rocketry as of last turn (1310AD). We might not be the only ones ND is holding out on with that tech and we might not be the only ones who see the danger in having only one civ with nukes.

"The trade deal ND is holding over our heads is an exchange of Computers for Rocketry. We gave Computers to ND on good faith (600g deposit) several turns ago, and now ND is holding out on Rocketry and using that as leverage to keep us from retailiating. Obviously ND doesn't want us to have a chance to get Space Flight (tactical nukes) before they do. Our best guess is that ND is 6-7 turns from nuking someone..." or something of the sort.

[DeepO]

Only problem I see with that, is that we don't know for certain whether it was ND that got rocketry, and not GoW.

I agree on being even more open than I suggested, though. No harm in that.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Must have been ND getting Rocketry, as GoW had been researching Fission until Vox got it.

[vmxa1]

Once we do in fact decide to go after ND, if we do, can we not tell GoW that we will not hold any land on Bob? We could even offer to gift cities to GoW, rather than abandon them.

This is just an attempt to keep them out of attacking us as they should have no real interest in going to war against us at that point. They have to know that our doing damage to ND is good for them.

I am not sure of the tipping point, but if I were in their shoes, I would have to think very hard about jumping in on ND.

IF we hit ND and do very limited damage, ND is still poised to win. If GOW comes in and we both cripple ND, then GoW is in the cat bird seat.

[Cort Haus]

draft message to GoW

Hi MZ.

The trade deal ND is holding over our heads is an exchange of Computers for Rocketry.

We gave Computers to ND on good faith (600g deposit) several turns ago, and now ND is holding out on Rocketry (which it now has) and using that as leverage to keep us from retailiating. Obviously ND doesn't want us to have a chance to get Space Flight (tactical nukes) before they do. Our best guess is that ND is 6-7 turns from nuking someone.

We understand your position regarding the trade of Uranium, and appreciate your willingness to trade luxuries. You wondered why we let the Uranium slip out of our hands. ND has occupied our source for at least two turns, denying us the possibility to build a city there. We didn't have a settler ready so asked them politely to go away as they were tresspassing. We asked them twice, and before having the chance of asking them again they attacked RP. We have to play nice as we don't want to give a reason for them to keep the tech they owe us.

As your MPP with ND prohibits us from landing on Bob, a full assault on ND would appear out of the question, but would we be hypothetically able to bomb ND's cities without triggering your pact with ND?

Regards,

-Cort

So far I balked at stating that ND-GS war would hand GoW victory. Surely it can only encourage MZ to stir the pot. I can work the theme in later, (and/or others that have been mentioned) but wanted to query it first.

(I'm out now until after midnight GMT)

[Krill]

MPP with Lego?

[Cort Haus]

thanks Krill - corrected!

[DeepO]

CH, I would rephrase the MPP thing. If we know say we won't invade, and later we do, we lose our credibility towards GoW at a moment where we could use it. I would put it like this:

Could we ask how far the Bob-for-the-Bobians treaty goes precisely? If we're denied our uranium for which we fought so hard, one of the best options left to us would be to pour our resources into a carrier fleet, and bomb ND to high heaven. Would that trigger the treaty, and the need for you to join in on the war against us?

So no mention about invading ND, just imply that we do not consider it a viable option without actually saying it.

Further, I would correct MZ on the reasons for war. Self-quoting here:

Uranium is one of the reasons for the attack. The other is land (as mentioned in previous mail, they can certainly go for domination), another is a possibility for the UN when RP is gone (which means that it is in GoW's best interest to protect RP, how unlikely it seems. At least until Lego is gone). And maybe they want a provocation of us, so they have a reason and a chance to invade Stormia as well. They're welcome to try.

That should be rephrased probably, but it's the idea that counts.

DeepO

[Krill]

Hi MZ.

The trade deal ND is holding over our heads is an exchange of Computers for Rocketry.

As for reasaons to go to war, uranium is one of the reasons for the attack. The other is land (as mentioned in previous mail, they can certainly go for domination), another is the possibility to win by the UN when RP is gone (which is why RP and Lego are so important). Maybe they want provocation from us, so they have a reason and a chance to invade Stormia as well. They're welcome to try, but they have a lot of options open to themselves, unlike GS.

We gave Computers to ND on good faith (600g deposit) several turns ago, and now ND is holding out on Rocketry (which it now has) and using that as leverage to keep us from retailiating. Obviously ND doesn't want us to have a chance to get Space Flight (tactical nukes) before they do. Our best guess is that ND is 6-7 turns from nuking someone.

We understand your position regarding the trade of Uranium, and appreciate your willingness to trade luxuries. You wondered why we let the Uranium slip out of our hands. ND has occupied our source for at least two turns, denying us the possibility to build a city there. We didn't have a settler ready so asked them politely to go away as they were tresspassing. We asked them twice, and before having the chance of asking them again they attacked RP. We have to play nice as we don't want to give a reason for them to keep the tech they owe us.

Could we ask how far the Bob-for-the-Bobians treaty goes precisely? If we're denied our uranium for which we fought so hard, one of the only viable options left to us would be to pour our resources into a carrier fleet, and bomb ND to high heaven. Would that trigger the treaty, and the need for you to join in on the war against us?

Regards,

-Cort

(With alterations from DeepO and myself)

[Aeson]

I think we're saying too much about issues that have no relevency.

No, we do not have an MPP though technically the old "Bob is for Bobians" treaty is still in effect but of course that would not be invoked unless for example GS sneak attacked ND by invading them (Lego-style). If you start a war with ND on Legoland or at sea or whatever, that does not constitute a "threat to Bob" and thus we don't have to intervene.

No need for us to reply to this. It can only get us into trouble to address the issue further. We asked, they answered, end of discussion.

Regarding treaties, to be honest, GoW doesn't really give a crap if GS or ND break treaties between each other. It's so late in the game that those issues are hardly of interest to us. If you attack ND or whatever, we won't hold it against you nor will we stop dealing with you or otherwise, in short, no diplomatic penalty. And I doubt Vox or RP would care either. For all I care, only treaties regarding ourselves actually concern us. ND broke a treaty by invading RP's holdings, GS breaking a treaty to counter that action isn't betrayal, it's payback.

No need for us to replay to this either.

Regarding luxes, we'll give you as many as you need (and Roleplay too).

Thank you.

Uranium on the other hand is a more serious issue.

We understand.

Why did you not build and keep a city around the Lego uranium when it was clearly on your side? If ND wanted to deny you resources they would have struck ALL RP/GS cities on Lego but they did not attack yours. And if uranium is the secret reason behind ND's attack (quite likely IMO) then it's unlikely they'll compromise with you or us for a peaceful solution.

ND has a crossing to Lego that requires 1/3rd the Transports that our crossing requires. With current Transport numbers that means they can put over 3 times the number of units on Lego that we can on any given turn. To offset this, we'd have to leave Stormia nearly empty, which is something we can't do. Uranium is important, but without Stormia we couldn't make use it. So in effect, we were at the mercy of ND (or rather the RNG which determined Uranium placement) regardless.

That's not to say we will abandon Lego to ND. We still consider that source of Uranium as in our territory. If ND is going to try to force GS into irrellevency, which is exactly what they are doing right now, they will have to go through all of Stormia to do it. They saw some open cities and took them, saw an undefended Uranium source and took it, without considering that by doing so the only way GS can continue to be relevent in this game is to go through them now.

I'm not so sure therefore how well mediation might work between us. What I did tell ND is that we do not look favorably to them keeping cities on GS's half after next turn since that would make US look bad because we made the treaty and allowing our client to violate it is akin to us violating it first hand. Have you guys talked to them at all?

We have tried to. ND had "invaded" by putting their unit on the Uranium the first turn they were on the continent, and have been ignoring our communications since then.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by DeepO
Only problem I see with that, is that we don't know for certain whether it was ND that got rocketry, and not GoW.

I agree on being even more open than I suggested, though. No harm in that.

DeepO

Evaluate depreciation. Do 2 civs have it?

Do we have a spy sshot of ND working on it?