A change of focus

[Dominae]

I'm pretty sure that you lose the Hydro Plants unless you built them manually while you held Hoover's...

[Cort Haus]

No, the buildings disappear with the wonder if you haven't built them. I wasn't thinking about a disband-PJ but just building the Palace in WoC.

[DeepO]

Thx, Dom. So we better not intend to palace jump then

DeepO

[DeepO]

a triple cross-post, while editing another post in another window... yep.. looks like the GS-forum to me

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

hypo:

we land in massive force on lego, as does Gow

Lego begins negotiations with ND to counter GoW in Bob (Nd lacks the lifting capacity to strike GS)

Lego believes its secure for one more turn, and ND waits to finalize plans.

ND opens the save and sees what has happened and has to move now against GoW, otherwise a consolidation of forces on Lego and rebuilding GoW's homeforce.

Darekill, friend of GoW objects, quits.

[Cort Haus]

There's another old but slightly mad idea that I'd like to recycle in an amended form. Concerning Vox, it is the complete opposite of one just expressed above.

If Lego are eliminated, we only need one additional vote, other than RP, to win this game at the UN if we built it. Vox owe two teams a big favour for their continued existance, Lego and GS. If Lego are gone, and if we made Vox another big favour (relocating on Estonia for end of a game they'd probably be happy to see concluded - like RP and a lot of people on a lot of teams), they might vote for us at the UN. They might not when it came to it, but with RP's vote and GoW/ND unlikely to vote for each other we couldn't lose the election.

I'm sure it's completely mad, but worth pushing out there anyway

[Dominae]

Thanks for the responses re: my uninformed comment above (about RP and GoW).

However, I still think there is a lack of discussion as to what happens next, now that Lego is (I presume) no longer a real contender in this game (and maybe no longer even a player).

Here are my thoughts:

1. ND is in a perfect position to capitalize on the recent bloodshed. Did they commit any troops to the assault on Legoland?

2. Regardless of previous alliances and/or understandings, ND are a real contender for the win and will surely be thinking about their next move. Will it be against GoW, or us, or will they just turtle as Lego did?

3. The defense of ND's homeland, while difficult for them at the moment, will be a situation they will have remedied in the next few turns.

4. Who gets Lego's continent?

5. What is GoW up to? They need an alliance to successfully take on either us or RP, that seems clear to me. Someone mentioned that they would be happy just to lob Nukes...

6. What are we up to. We put everything into this war (as far as I can tell), and now it seems like we are coming out on the winning side. With the Lego threat gone, we must look for another and plan for it (such is the way of war games).

7. What role can/do/will Vox and RP play?

Please excuse me if many of these things have been or are being discussed elsewhere; I have been away for too long to catch up so fast on the collective knowledge of this great team.

[DeepO]

possible. But the reason for Darekill quiting might be a lot lower to earth: he already gave the presidency to Zeri because he couldn't spend the time needed (or so I believe his last message was). He took back control of diplomacy because he's one of the few people speaking English well enough, and possibly he wasn't too pleased with how things were going either. Now... rl has cought up, and he had to resign permanently.

Zeri might tell us that Darekill quits on his own, but don't read into that that there was a fight... it's just very basic, rudimentary English. English is one of the hardest languages to get the finesses right, foreigners always sound brutal, confronting, redneck-like (if that expresses what I mean). And Germans (no offense, SR), are in general already a no-nonsense people...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
There's another old but slightly mad idea that I'd like to recycle in an amended form. Concerning Vox, it is the complete opposite of one just expressed above.

If Lego are eliminated, we only need one additional vote, other than RP, to win this game at the UN if we built it. Vox owe two teams a big favour for their continued existance, Lego and GS. If Lego are gone, and if we made Vox another big favour (relocating on Estonia for end of a game they'd probably be happy to see concluded - like RP and a lot of people on a lot of teams), they might vote for us at the UN. They might not when it came to it, but with RP's vote and GoW/ND unlikely to vote for each other we couldn't lose the election.

I'm sure it's completely mad, but worth pushing out there anyway

That's not so mad at all. And it would mean a huge victory, in my eyes... I don't have a clue how to ask them, though.

Something along the lines of:
"well, we hope we're still friends, and please know that we're still protecting you. At this moment, there have been talks of taking you out, now that your big protector is gone. We would prefer to end all this bloodshed, we feel sorry for Lego, even if it was us who eventually brought them to their knees. It would be possible to eliminate you, but we've got another idea: why don't we together claim victory of this game, by building the UN, and vote for GS? It would not mean defeat for you, but victory... and do it for the little countries. It is the only possible way out of this game, ND and GoW are way too strong already, and can only grow. We are destined to be attacked, most likely right after GoW wipes you off the planet. This seems as good an end as any.
So, in the light of our previous friendship, would you cinsder voting for us in case we could get our hands on the UN?"

I like that. I like it a lot. Not only would it be the perfect victory for us (being the diplomatic bulls in the porcelain shop), but it would end this game without any long stretched out wars. I think everyone will have gotten enough at this point, after 2 years of activity.

Now the only problem is, would they go for it?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
Thanks for the responses re: my uninformed comment above (about RP and GoW).

However, I still think there is a lack of discussion as to what happens next, now that Lego is (I presume) no longer a real contender in this game (and maybe no longer even a player).

Well, you're right of course. But this past few turns have really drained energy, nothing was left to discuss the future. A lot has changed in a very short period of time.

1. ND is in a perfect position to capitalize on the recent bloodshed. Did they commit any troops to the assault on Legoland?

Nope. In the beginning, they said that they needed to build their territory (which is correct, by claiming all of RP, they had to start building cities, while the rest of us were building factories. They seem to have caught up now, though). Once that was finished, they could start to send troops. ND knew our preferred invasion date from the start, and thought the war was going to last for at least 20 turns, by the end they could join. This means they are about ready to switch from defense to offense, and might be tempted to come early, now that both we and GoW are still on Legoland.

2. Regardless of previous alliances and/or understandings, ND are a real contender for the win and will surely be thinking about their next move. Will it be against GoW, or us, or will they just turtle as Lego did?

It all depends on who is at the helm there. ND has never been good builders, but after the Bobian wat, and after more then a few comments in public on the use of workerpumps, they seemed to have changed tactics. Maybe GoW is 1st in production and GNP, but ND is either a close second, or even starting to overtake them. Legoland is out of this picture, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least in gpt, ND would haven been better. science, I don't know, they spent a complete era buying techs at bottom prices, which suggests they would have more stock exchanges than unis

3. The defense of ND's homeland, while difficult for them at the moment, will be a situation they will have remedied in the next few turns.

Hmmm... I'm not certain about that. I mentioned above how difficult it is to counter settler blitzes. This is not something that changes over night. But as of this turn, everyone is painfully aware of the tactic, and will be pressed to come up with solutions. Also, ND are far from fools, in the Bobian war we saw one of the better uses of a combat settler by them (extending their territory one tile, so that they could attack a RP city directly). Granted, that didn't mean the destruction of another city, like we have done here, but the principle is comparable.

4. Who gets Lego's continent?

Something we really should start thinking of. I proposed earlier, to ask GoW to give RP, as a neutral party, De fields (or a city build where Dye fields is now), as it would keep either of us from eyeing the other too much. But RP isn't exactly neutral, so selling that to GoW would be very difficult. As to the rest: we, and GoW ahve the same problem. Neither of us need it for the land (by the time it is productive, the game has ended), but resources are always nice. The problem is you've got to defend it too, of course.

5. What is GoW up to? They need an alliance to successfully take on either us or RP, that seems clear to me. Someone mentioned that they would be happy just to lob Nukes...

nukes seem so MZish, that is hard to not let that cross your mind. I agree there. As to an alliance: we're lucky to have the biggest army... relatively unharmed even after the Lego war (well, up until know, anyway). But GoW knows we only have half their production... it wouldn't take long to match or surpass us. The main reason they need an alliance, is that they have to be sure they're safe on Bob.

6. What are we up to. We put everything into this war (as far as I can tell), and now it seems like we are coming out on the winning side. With the Lego threat gone, we must look for another and plan for it (such is the way of war games).

I'm not sure on whether we need another war, but it might be unavoidable... it sure would be taxing on us as a team. I can't play another war, even if I want to remain active as an advisor.

That's why the UN thing seems so appealing to me: we could do it sneakily (tell ND and GoW we're going for minituarization and the internet, prebuild the UN instead), we could maybe do it before GoW and ND get any ideas (with all our defenders upgraded, we're still a force to reckon with, and will continue to be for another 10 turns at least), and it would end this game...

7. What role can/do/will Vox and RP play?

No idea. If Vox would join us in the UN, RP will certainly follow. Otherwise, I think Vox is best used as a diversion: ally with GoW to take them out.

Please excuse me if many of these things have been or are being discussed elsewhere; I have been away for too long to catch up so fast on the collective knowledge of this great team.

Not at all, Dom. fresh ideas and PoVs are necessary. And you caught us at a big turning point, at which all wild ideas are welcome. The more brainstorming, the better ideas can come out of it!

DeepO

[vmxa1]

While the UN has some merit, let me toss a bit of water on it. First of course we have no assurances they will stick to the vote.

Second, once a UN is being built and possibily before then, the Bobians are going to look to snuf the minority voters, rather than risk a loss, are they not?

If we do feel that a fig leaf should be offered, it had better be done right now. I say that as if I was GoW, I am going to bring up the whole contients division after the battle at the fort.

If they capture it, I start thinking of the split.

[vmxa1]

Dom we are grateful to have another voice. Even those of us that did little were drained by this run up to the war. I can only guess what it must be like for DeepO, I would be completely incoherent at this point.

Wait, I already am half the time.

[DeepO]

If we would want it, it has to be decided before we start our next turn. And we should have some reassurances from VoX as well. (and not a vote or be destroyed thing, even if we could do it)

If so, there are a couple of things we can do... first of all, deception is going to be key. We haven't done it so far (at least not willingly), but when the end is in sight, I don't mind it. So...
1. we turtle on Lego, keeping them alive for a few turns longer. Problem: while still in mob, no prebuild. But perhaps leaders can help us

2. we start talks with GoW on another war, in let's say 10 turns time (which would be perfect, as that is the closest we can get to researching... whatever the tech is called for the UN)

3. we let everyone know we're going for minituarization

4. we can even let everyone know that we want the internet, but as it is 1 of the 2 things you gain from that tech, I think everyone will understand it.

Other things:
5. we keep our minority partners safe. Give both of them a city if needed. Vox can't be taken in one turn (too many mountains around), and RP could be split up.

6. or even better, we ask both of them to put a settler on a boat, and go hide somewhere near the poles. (that still gives you diplomatic options, right?) By the time they find them, we will have our votes.

7. and while pretending that nothing is wrong (so we build airports etc, visible things), we do all we can to hold onto our one city which builds the UN. Without a leader, that is at a minimum 10 turns in Tempest, if we can steal shields from other cities (even more then now). But 100 MI in there, for all I care.

I see some possibilities here, for sure. Nobody is saying it will be easy, but it might be possible...

If we lose it (by e.g. losing the UN build), we're toast. But I think we're more or less toast anyway.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Dom we are grateful to have another voice. Even those of us that did little were drained by this run up to the war. I can only guess what it must be like for DeepO, I would be completely incoherent at this point.

Wait, I already am half the time.

I am too, but I hope I'm forgiven for that

DeepO

[DeepO]

oh, one thing I forgot to mention: there is no delay, it needs perfect timing. The moment we discover the tech, we build the UN, not a turn later. And the turn we do it, we need both partners to vote. No delay. By the time the save arrives again here, it has to be a won game

DeepO