A change of focus

[vulture]

So this turn we, along with GoW, are hopefully going to raze ten or more important Lego cities, trash their unit production power and cripple either their ability to support a military, or their ability to research. While it might not be the death blow, it is going to be a very serious one (and all because Lego vastly overestimated how many infantry they needed in Abilene to defend it from 68 tanks; they could have had almost 20 infantry to scatter around in other places).

How is ND going to react? They aren't exactly active supporters of GAUL, and are basically just staying out of the way while Lego goes down, leaving them in pole position, more or less. This turn, they are going to see Lego lose a boat-load of cities. At this point, they just might think that they've stayed out of the way long enough. If ten Lego cities go, Lego aren't a competitor to ND any more, and only we and GoW remain in the race along with ND. And when is ND going to have a better chance to do to us what we just did to Lego? Neither we nor GoW have a great deal of defense left at home. What if next turn ND mobilises, guts GoW with a tank/settler/cavalry blitz, and then looks in our direction (assuming they need to).

Basically, my question is this: even though it seems vastly premature, is now the time to start organising our builds back home to focus on defending Stormia? Or are we stuck without a choice and need to keep sending units to Legoland, and just hope that ND leave us alone for the time being.

ISTM that if we can do enough damage this turn, Lego has zero chance of winning the space race (which is probably how this is going to be decided), and we don't actually need to do any more over there.

And even if you disagree, its still worth bearing in mind that our focus isn't on defeating Lego's military: it's winning the game against all other civs.

[DeepO]

vulture, I completely agree that you start this debate. However, a request: can this wait until after this turn is played? I can't focus on everything at once, and this discussion is not going to affect how we play our turn. Right now, there is no choice, but after this turn there might be one.

I can add a couple of things, btw. How about GoW? How about Vox? Would Lego be interested in signing an unconditional surrender, and hand over their cities to us? etc.

But later, please

DeepO

[vmxa1]

First we must have saltpetter and rubber or at least rubber. This means we must hold some land on Lego.

This means we need to send more units to Lego and run the risk. We can start to hold some units at home in a few turns, so the window is very small for ND to come for us.

Second hitting us will not get ND past GoW and GoW is easier for them to hit as they do not have to go to sea,

If Lego was to give up and give cities to others and not us, we would have to consider attacking those cities anyway. We must have more land for more resources to win as it now stands.

Depending on how this plays out in the next few turns, we should consider taking out Vox as well. Why have them around to potentially giving aid to the others? Look how we have had to worry about them in this run up.

DeepO this thread will be here when you are ready todeal with. take your time.

[Arrian]

I think the focus should be on attacking ND (if, of course, we can convince GoW to do it), not attempting to defend Stormia. The best defense....

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

GROND

Geo-Realist Opposition to ND
Great Reunified Opposition to ND
Gratuitous Ravaging of ND
Gloriously Ratified Ordination ... no

[Cort Haus]

Goddam Rumsfeldian Operations against ND

[DeepO]

I've got to say one thing: I know attacking is possibly the best option right now, but don't forget the Bobian war. We need someone who wants to focus us on this, and I'm not going to be that guy. Do not start a war with ND, unless we are commited to it, otherwise we would be much better off on our island.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

I joined more or less after the Bobian war, so I have no built in animus towards ND. It does seem that we could have a shot at winning the space race, but do we think anyone is going to let someone launch with no fight?

If we are in position to launch, Bob would come for us and probably much sooner than that.

ND has got to be concerned about GoW with their current build up and the possiblity that we could join against them.

So I would expect to see an alliance. Either we are in it or it will be coming for us. So that leaves the when and whom.

GoW is working with us and that is a great start and should be built upon. I would start talks with MZ about what he sees coming down the road.

I do feel we did not get much support from ND and we did have a war with them, so they are the first consideration.

Too me we only have the option of preparing and trying to get our WW down before we need to take action. We may want to wait for MA's, if we can.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DeepO
I've got to say one thing: I know attacking is possibly the best option right now, but don't forget the Bobian war. We need someone who wants to focus us on this, and I'm not going to be that guy. Do not start a war with ND, unless we are commited to it, otherwise we would be much better off on our island.

DeepO

Damn right. GROND jokes aside, I doubt we've got another war in us, to be honest. I reckon GoW are itching to use nukes in this game. With Lego now pruned to GS-proportions the only target is ND. Maybe that's where we can slip through the hole to an SS.

The clear #1 (now ND) and the clear #2 (GoW) have the responsibility to duke it out. Of course GoW will want us as allies, but we can dig in and sit it out, saying "hey, 3 is enough - you guys are a war behind us!". No-one could take on Lego alone, but GoW/ND could realistically hit each other alone. This puts GS in a good diplomatic position. Both GoW and ND will not want us in the other camp. We can be cordial with both, and maybe enjoy favours in the same way as ND enjoyed favours from us as we strove to keep them out of Lego's camp.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I do feel we did not get much support from ND and we did have a war with them, so they are the first consideration.

Maybe I'm rather forgivefull on this, but as one of the few members who were active from the start, I can tell you: I don't care we had a war with ND before. I learned in that war, that generally ND do not speak a lot, but mean what they say. But even that could be changed, as they are not the same group anymore.

GoW similarly: I have never hated them. I still don't trust them, though, as MZ is still the one with the evil plans, and is proud on that. I still expect him to backstab us...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by vmxa1

If we are in position to launch, Bob would come for us and probably much sooner than that.

ND has got to be concerned about GoW with their current build up and the possiblity that we could join against them.

True and true. We would have to conceal our launch potential, I think Aeson posted some ideas on this somewhere. The ideal timing would be when they were distracted fighting each other - maybe with RP suddenly getting an SS tech or something.

ND will be concerned about the GS-GoW 'Axis of Evil' , which is why I slightly fear a pre-emptive strike by them, but our recent agreed sale of Computers to allow them Mech Inf must have given them less reason to fear us in the short term.

So I would expect to see an alliance. Either we are in it or it will be coming for us. So that leaves the when and whom.

Certainly in the early and mid game, when everyone is jockeying for position, you are either in an alliance or one is coming to get you. By the time you get to 3 powers (assuming Lego are sufficiently knocked back into 4th) it is unlikely to be #1 and #2 against #3.

GoW is working with us and that is a great start and should be built upon. I would start talks with MZ about what he sees coming down the road.

Yes, that would be good.

[Arrian]

I have no dislike of ND, personally. The war with them was quite gentlemanly, frankly. They did what they had to do, as did we. Their side won.

GoW... some personal crap in the public forum, but I'm over that. I also hold them to be less trustworthy, but then again more useful. ND was always very non-committal (smart of them, I think).

Maybe we can win w/o taking a shot at ND. DeepO's point about dedication to yet another war is certainly valid. We might not be able to do this again. The question is... do we need to?

Can we hide a SS attempt? I doubt it. There are some techs we must acquire that have no other use, and thus telegraph our intentions. That paints a bullseye on us.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Yeah, I just wanted to put out some thoughts. Even if they are all wrong, it at least gets things started.

The timeline may be too short for 1 and 2 to go for three and still deal with each other, but if I am one of them, I want to put 3 out of the running.

Now if a shot to do 2, if I am 1 comes along then fine. Hit 1 if I am 2. That is going to be a dangerous task and could prove fatal or give 3 the prize.

This is the way I think, so I would first lean toward stopping 3. Then no one can be used to hurt me much, the other top dog will have to put it all on the line to hit me. I do not want to look over my shoulder.

When nukes come along anyone can tip the scales. This is why I would eliminate anyone from the game I could. Currently that means Lego and then Vox.

I mean gone, not damaged.

[DeepO]

Lego with only one city left is basically gone... nukes are not effective when you only have one It's either mass deployment, or no deployment at all. Besides, how are they going to get the techs required?

I'm not sure if there will be time or not. ND said they needed 13 turns for the next tech (last turn, or the one before). In 25 turns, a lot can happen, certainly if the forces are present. Granted, it was not as expected, but after 3 turns of naval warfare, Lego gets detroyed in 2 turns time... and the Bobians don't need 3 turns of naval warfare, not to get us, nor the other Bobian...

DeepO

[vmxa1]

I agree one ciy is not a threat, except if the UN is allowed. But why have to game slow down to have that one city civ take a turn?

I can forsee teams not being very intereste in taking their turn at that point.

I was under the impression that the idea was maybe to get a peace while they had a bunch of cities left. I am glad to see that was wrong.

The time I was refering to was not the amount of time it takes to fight the war, but the time needed to prepare. GoW will probably want to have down time to be rid of the WW.

ND does not have WW to deal with. Anyway just putting it out there to digest.