Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego (GAUL)

[vulture]

Neither GoW nor ND can make much use of land on Lego for the same reasons that we can't. ND in particular already has its FP built, giving minimal benefit to expanding off Bob (given how much ground they can potentially sew up at GoW's expense). GoW can probably get more use out of Lego's territory, but they then have the problem of a very hard to defend territory - if they ship too much to Lego, they are vulnerable to ND, who could get much better use out of GoW land than they could out of Lego. If they stick to defending their home land, Vox should be capable of mounting enough of an attack to take Lego's ex-territory. If GoW make enough of a military commitment to defend both territories (given that ND or we could attack on either) then they cripple their economy in the long term with unit support costs, and their infrastructure in the medium term by not being able to build improvements instead of military.

GoW expanding on to Lego would be over-extending themselves enough to be taken advantage of.

Of couse, we face the same problem to a great extent trying to get anywhere off Bob - but we have a slight advantge in benig able to transplant RP who can then look out for themselves, while we get back N Stormia - we expand their, and RP expand off Stormia, to our mutual benefit.

[vmxa1]

While all that say could be correct, it does not matter. The fact is that one of the teams must be derailed.

GoW and ND cannot go head to head right now and win the game and they must know that.

They will have a harder time busting us, right now and that land is not enough to win.

The land does not ave to be productive to be valuable.

If Lego is crippled, GoW will have time to consoildate, before anyone will try to take them down. As we all will.
This is because by demanding that we put up a number of units, all teams will be spread thin, thus making them all vulnerable.

The bottom line to me is that they are talking about an invasion with us for a reason. either they see the need to hurt Lego or they are trying to trick us.

For all the reason I have mentioned, I would pick it is the former. either way we have to go with them.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by vmxa1
The bottom line to me is that they are talking about an invasion with us for a reason. either they see the need to hurt Lego or they are trying to trick us.

For all the reason I have mentioned, I would pick it is the former. either way we have to go with them.

I've no doubt it's the former. This is not a trick against us.

They're offering us Saltpeter to get the job done. With that we could get a shed-load of Muskets and Cav together and dust off our plans for Bob. GoW and ND would be trusting us more than we'd have to trust them. They'd be trusting each other too. Major scope for backstabs there.

[Arrian]

I do NOT think we "have to go with them."

We may decide it is in our interests to go with them (what if it turns out we have no coal, and there is some on the west coast of Lego?), but we don't HAVE to.

See, from my point of view, this thing is GoW/ND's problem. They are the #2 and #3 civs, and thus it's on them to take #1 down a peg or two. We, sitting at #4, don't necessary need (or want) to help them... directly at least.

Ask yourselves this: do you REALLY want to make GoW/ND's job easy? I don't think so. I think we want them to do a bundle of damage, but suffer heavy casualties in the process. Weaking all three civs, while we build like crazy and ponder a targetted marine strike on somebody down the road.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Further clarification of my position:

IF Legoland has not blocked their coastline and GoW & ND manage to find a landing zone, those two have more than enough firepower to do the job we want them to do.

There is absolutely no need for our direct involvement unless we're seriously considering eliminating Lego and dividing their lands.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Arrian

There is absolutely no need for our direct involvement unless we're seriously considering eliminating Lego and dividing their lands.

-Arrian

The 'need' for GS involvement is not military but diplomatic. GoW's position is that that there will be no attack without us. We can call their bluff, but there would be the possiblity of Lego getting away.

[Cort Haus]

RP are interested in getting involved against Lego - see the RP log thread. Probably too early for their UU, but it gives them something to get optimistic about. However marginal their capacity, Togas wants to buy his way into ND-GoW hearts so they can return to Bob, and good for them, I say.

[vmxa1]

Consider this Arrain. If you are Gow and Nd you are tied at the hip until you take down either Lego or Stormia, maybe both.

If GS does not come in with them and send forces, you would have to concern yourself that they (us) are a problem.
In that case you talk to Lego and come against us first.
Now you can deal with only one as a two on one.

We need to be on their side or they will make us the enemy or at least I would. I would not want to have someone else to worry about. That we come in and spend at least some units is a must to be counted on from their view.

We really do not have the option of sitting it out, they will not allow that. At least if I was them I would not.

If it goes well we will be number 3, rather than number 4. We will be much closer to #1 and #2 and have a chance to over take them. Of course it depends on what happens on Lego.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian
Further clarification of my position:

IF Legoland has not blocked their coastline and GoW & ND manage to find a landing zone, those two have more than enough firepower to do the job we want them to do.

There is absolutely no need for our direct involvement unless we're seriously considering eliminating Lego and dividing their lands.

-Arrian

You may be correct, I do not know their conditions.
I would think that they have to worry that they could take massive losses and be exposed to a combine counter attack.

The way I would try to make it softer on us, is to have them hit the beach first. They get the bulk of the counter attack.
Maybe we could do a diversionary move to draw some attention and thus make it some what easier for them to land.
Be spotted off shore.

Maybe I am way off, but I find it hard to believe that Lego can blockade and protect that huge land mass at this point. down the road, yes.

Once the tech trade starts to work, we could consider get another ally on their contient. I am not informed about the disposition of Vox (is that the team?).

[Theseus]

Hi guys, sorry, RL snagged my sorry *ss again. Hopefully over the weekend I can get caught up on all things Civ3 (and yes, I have completed AU 501! ).

I've caught up on the PTWDG, although having rushed through all the posts and not having reviewed a save I don't feel like I have my head fully wrapped around what's going on.

Of everything that's been posted though, what's jumped out at me has been CH's general stance that "heck, we don't know how this things gonna play out, but we're gonna do our damned best along the way", the consistent references to us being the #4 power, and prolly not a likely winner, and then, most succinctly, this post by nye:

Originally posted by notyoueither
For my part, without having read all this, aiding ND to eat Lego directly by weakening ourselves further, would be folly, IF all things were equal.

Unfortunately, Lego long ago decided not to have a build off against us, and chose to place themselves squarely in our tracks.

Hmmm... ND wins or Lego wins....

Frankly, I would choose ND after the stuff Lego has pulled in this game. Unlike some of you, I have a relationship with vondrack, and a great deal of respect for him. However, like you, I want to see him eat the fruits of his labours in this game.

However, know this. A world without Lego is a world where ND wins. Be sure you know what you want before you do it.

Well, sorry, but F*CK THAT!!

Here are some of my macro thoughts:

* NDGoW have invited us to there little party. GOOD (I think it's real, btw). We need ongoing discord in the world... on that note, btw, the bit about spying and Vondrack freaking out in the public is brilliant, and more of the same should be encouraged.

* I'm OK with us participating militarily, especially as considered using primarily existing upgraded units. I haven't seen, however, a suggestion that RP's participation could count towards ours... in other words, whereas MZ suggested 30 Cavs from GS, how about instead 20 GS Cavs and 15-20 RP Conquistadors? I concur, btw, with CH that this will give us the highest chances of grabbing the GWs that we are targeting.

* I don;t care what happens to Lego... damaged or destroyed, the key is to turn Legoland into a war-torn hell, where ND and GoW are compelled to commit serious forces to protect whatever they want to keep from all, including each other. I suggest that we not plan on retaining any territory there at all, other than as military bases.

* Perhaps the most important point I can make: AFTER smashing Lego's bricks, we need to reduce ND's production power to the point where we can win a space race against them. This will require diplo maneuvers with GoW, military action, gaining control of the Bobian luxuries, etc. Whatever happens post-GAUL, ND's production capabilities *must* be diminished. My guess is that this will be with Tanks, supported by Cavs /Conqs in a razing role.

* Included in the above point re a space race is ensuring that WE later have sufficient military power projection to DEMAND or TAKE the resources we require (thank you very much for teaching that lesson AU 501! ). On a related note, I think that this might solve the research / espionage problem as identified by vulture... assuming we can figure out the theft of techs, we need to be strong enough make a blanket statement to the world that any such theft will be mightily punished.

* Also included in considering a space race is the potential relocation of RP (to where?), and, as I think I saw suggested, the dismantlement of certain of our core cities to allow for monster metros.

I guess what has occurred to me is the following very simple thought construct:

- We have a superb infrastructure, across all of commerce, research, and production. Again, btw, my most sincere compliments to CH and the rest of the team for where you've taken our empire and the game overall.

- We are in a highly defensible position (still need more thought re Marines, but I believe it to be solvable).

- GAUL is highly likely to succeed, at least to the minimums of 1) distracting / redirecting Lego's production, if not 2) BOOM, completely taking out a competitive production economy.

- The most significant remaining production economy will then be ND. If we can also take THAT out, well, who do we really face from a production standpoint? GoW? I fart in their general direction.

Thus, the endgame can be about PRODUCTION.

And there, my friends, I'll take GS and give points.

So, no, nye, we are not here to be kingmakers... but rather to be KINGS.

[asleepathewheel]

Good to have you back


This might be the best time in the game for us. Up until now we've just been on the receiving end, now we get to engage in deceit and trickery and be on the offense

I hope we can land a turn or two after GoW, would love to listen to Lego's pleas....

[Theseus]

Hey sleepy.

I've been thinking of something else too, btw... isn't GAUL inevitable in a way, as long as we participate in some fashion?

Does that preclude us from somehow telegraphing to Lego what is about to happen?

Don;t start yelling at me everyone!

I just mean that, heck, don;t we won't Legoland to be the biggest slog possible for NDGoW?

Deceit and trickery, indeed.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Theseus
So, no, nye, we are not here to be kingmakers... but rather to be KINGS.

Point taken.

[vmxa1]

Theseus, I don't think it will be necessary. They are sharp and will soon see they have a problem. They may not know how big the problem is, but they will at least know GoW and ND are coming.

The first time they can't make any trades and they see the price drop of the some of the techs, far sooner than they should. It then will be clear that tech trading is going on and they are not part of it.

To me that is the fly in the ointment. The attack will have to be soon after the first round of techs are swapped. Otherwise Lego will smell a rat and switch to military builds. Unless I give them too much credit.

I think if we send some ships out and Lego see them, they will have to figure it is a gangbang. They will have to know we could not assault them by ourself.

[Theseus]

Good point, v. The lack of tech trades will be the telegraph. Has this been addressed with NDGoW? As you point out, it will have an important impact on timing of attack.