Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego (GAUL)

[Cort Haus]

1. A huge assault might kill Lego which is maybe more than we'd have bargained for. Perhaps we could gain a hundred tiles, but we'd need a GL for that to be productive. We couldn't hold it against the others. We'd want a balance of power, including Lego, on that continent, but could it be controlled?

2. We are geared up for civilian builds, especially wonders. The Smiths thread is planning shield and beaker targets trying to co-ordinate Sci Meth, ToE and Hoover. Shield expenditure for the mainly naval builds wouldn't be massive, but it would slow our science down by delaying libs and cost us research time. Switching research off to pay for upgrades doesn't fit with our race for the ToE. However, see (4)

Offsetting this, we can sell techs to ND for cash, and Lego under siege won't be dashing for the ToE. If they aren't prioritising Mil Trad and Nat now, they would have to if attacked.

3. Sea wall. It would be surprising if Lego didn't make a decent job of this, but they they have higher spec units than us, so are 'average' but with less units. If GoW/ND land in the east it'll be harder for Lego to defend the west.

4. ToE : The proposed war might help us get the ToE, if it forces Lego away from Sci Meth. and we control the tech rate with GoW. GoW's research power isn't strong, though. They're flat out now on Mil Trad for probably another 5 turns before they can raise the other 200 they owe us. They might be pushed to get Medicine in the 13 turns we're expecting to do Steam + Elect in.

[Cort Haus]

5. RP. We'd need our units off their sea wall, and last time we heard from them we were suggesting they build marketplaces. Maybe time for a chat with them.

6. Timing. MZ said "couldn't you get 20-30 units together in the medium term"? We can do medium term much easier than short term. Short term would mess us about. But if they get started, we can turn up later to help if needed.

[vmxa1]

I did not mean to say we should eliminate them, but it may be out of our hands. That is why we need a deal that divides the land.

How we can impose and maintain it, is another problem. We would likely have some time to deal with that. I would not expect Bobians to come for us right away. That would be dangerous for them to control. They would have to look over their shoulder. We offer them the chance to keep everyone form each others throats for a time.

I would have to think Lego is contemplating right now, gearing for war. They must have some grave concerns about their future.

If we do go ahead with the tech deal (and I hope we do), they have to realize the danger. They will have to switch to MT or get it some place, unless they are ready tobet it all that an invasion is not coming until tanks.

They do not have the luxury of having their landing zones protected until marines. They do not have the luxury of knowing that their land is not enough to win the game for anyone.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

6. Timing. MZ said "couldn't you get 20-30 units together in the medium term"? We can do medium term much easier than short term. Short term would mess us about. But if they get started, we can turn up later to help if needed.

With the cash coming, can we not afford to upgrade to calvs, given the tech and SP?

If an invasion goes off, the tech race is going to go our way and the wonders will probably not get built by Lego or if they are they will be of no use to them.

[vmxa1]

BTW what about making some pikes, instead of warriors as replacements? Pikes and become so much more later.

How much longer would it be to build them? How fast would you need replacements if an invasion goes off anyway. I mean it should be pretty safe for a time.

[asleepathewheel]

I would think that we could safely pull our units off the far south and south east wall. One thing we could do is to station our galleons down there a few squares out to give us a heads up if something comes our way.

[asleepathewheel]

How are you feeling about this CH?

I was leaning against military action, but in light of the power of lego, we might not have a choice. Get them now before rails or wait til marines.

And I think this is playing into Gow/ND hands, as eliminating/crippling Lego would get them much closer to victory. If they owned bob and lego, they could declare a joint victory. Perhaps we should inquire about that before any agreement. We don't want them to take half of lego, then gift cities to one or the other and win by domination. Not that I think Zen et al would be satisfied by that, but is a concern.

Ideally of course, lego would be gutted, losing their wonder cities, but have enough units to push off the invaders and recapture all their land, I just don't see how that will happen.

What we could do:
1) land units
2) take a coastal city, withdrawing a handful of survivors to stormia early
3) take second coastal city, withdrawing a few more cavs
etc.

meaning that we would be attacking lego, but we would not be using our full force, instead pulling a few units off each turn. We could claim that we lost more units than we actually did (no one will know the better) giving lego a better shot at driving us off Legoland and thus driving GoW/ND off.

[vmxa1]

I don't see GoW and ND doing anything like that. It would be so unsatifactory. They will gamble on out playing each other after whacking Lego and then us.

We almost have no choice but to to go along and make an effort to get land and hold it.

It is either the three of us or the three of them, which do you prefer?

They want us to commit about 30 units to ensure we do not get a free ride. We have to send about that much to try to get land and keep it. When and how to stop the war is the tricky part.

[vulture]

I say we avoid upgtrading pikes to muskets - the cost is horrendous compared to the cost of upgrading knights to cavalry (20 gold IIRC). As sleepy said, the value of pikes and muskets are very nearly equal as far as the initial offensive is concerned - they would be there to take the first hit and ensure the cavalry are healthy for our offensive. Then we'll need to start getting some riflemen to hold the territory - thankfully resource free, and we get the tech shortly after the attack start from NDs research (although again, upgrade costs are going to be an issue since we can't slow down our tech pace to Sci Method - incidentally, it's very good news that GoW are willing to go with researching Medicine and Industrialisation - although you notice they get the more expensive techs in return for the cheaper ones, with no extra cash - that might flag how much stock we're putting on ToE).

With the extra cash from ND, should we investigate another city or two to try and uncover more of the western lego territory, or investigate a known coastal city to see any sea wall units in its radius.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
we need to merge this thread with discussion from the tech deal thread.

Yes, but I don't know how we do that. We'll have to juggle, I'll try NYE

[notyoueither]

Thread to merge with:
Copy the URL of the thread to be merged in the box on the right.
Note: all posts from the thread specified in the box to the right will be inserted into their relative positions in the thread 'Current Diplo : RP GA and GoW/ND Tech deals', and the thread specified on the right will be deleted.

Are you sure you want this?

[Cort Haus]

Hmmm, Maybe merging them would have other problems. Perhaps we can steer discussion or war and tech on their seperate threads. The issues have become intertwined, somewhat.

[notyoueither]

For my part, without having read all this, aiding ND to eat Lego directly by weakening ourselves further, would be folly, IF all things were equal.

Unfortunately, Lego long ago decided not to have a build off against us, and chose to place themselves squarely in our tracks.

Hmmm... ND wins or Lego wins....

Frankly, I would choose ND after the stuff Lego has pulled in this game. Unlike some of you, I have a relationship with vondrack, and a great deal of respect for him. However, like you, I want to see him eat the fruits of his labours in this game.

However, know this. A world without Lego is a world where ND wins. Be sure you know what you want before you do it.

[notyoueither]

In short form, if we are not to win, we are picking the winner. Make sure we chose wisely, and ensure we extract what we want from the arrangement.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Hmmm, Maybe merging them would have other problems. Perhaps we can steer discussion or war and tech on their seperate threads. The issues have become intertwined, somewhat.

OK. Let me know if you need me.