Vox defeated?

[FrustratedPoet]

Shall we include a formal request for them to make a scenario for us?

[ManicStarSeed]

I like finalized document in nathan's post. The earlier document had a vague aggressive feel that would have pissed people off. This later version should go over better.

Good job everyone. It is a huge step in the process

I know I havent been much help much, and for that I am sorry..

I wish I had because it is a work to be proud of...

But on a vaguely related topic...

Anyway, I want to start a tread over the next day to solicit more Diplomacy help to make sure it stays alive and well. I am thinking 2 ambassadors to each civ. With an additional person needed as "my assistant"... I get the sense that we need to throw some bodies at the diplomacy thing to insure its functionality...

At this point, nbarclay should be confred the honors of Vox ambassador while I become his humble assistant...
What do you think?

Mss

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Shall we include a formal request for them to make a scenario for us?

Is this so that we can help them with their economy? I would expect this to be a hard sell as we would have an insanely usefull piece of intellgence, that I would resist (if it were me) giving away...


Mss

[Aeson]

I thought they already offered to give the shields/food in the cities. That's really all we'd need to know (updated terrain improvements would help) to figure out the fastest and most efficient way to get them off Stormia.

[Arrian]

What Aeson said.

MSS - to the extent that you need bodies for diplomacy (I happen to agree with you, btw), I would be willing to serve as a backup (assistant, whatever) ambassador to one of the teams.

-Arrian

[FrustratedPoet]

I thought they specifically offered to make us a scenario of their territory for testing purposes.

But if all you need is a breakdown of their shields/food then tht's cool too.

We should just make sure we ask for something along those lines if we want to optimise their escape, that's all I'm saying. They've made plenty of "mistakes" before.

[notyoueither]

Very good. I hope it is sent, or that it goes very soon.

[nbarclay]

I finally managed to get the message through Apolyton's flakiness, although Jon Miller's PM box was full so part 2 didn't reach him. (I sent copies to Eli, Beta, and Jon.)

[nbarclay]

Jon now has, and has read, both parts (after I resent the second).

[Shiber]

Eli says he wonders about the "no embargo on the industrial bonus tech" clause because there is already a dictating that Vox will sell all of its bonus techs to GS for fair prices, so they can't embargo us.
Now, I know that there's a loophole here... they have to sell us the bonus tech, but it doesn't say when. So technically, they can embargo us. Perhaps some re-wording is in order?
Btw, he seems to be fine with all of our other revisions to his proposal.

[Octavian X]

How about this...

13. Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. This trade must take place within five turns of Vox's aquisition of the free tech, or within five turns of Gathering Storm's advancement into the prerequisite age of said tech, whichever should make the tech trade come sooner.

Complicated, but basicaly says they have five turns to negotiate and fork it over, and takes out the a potential problem of Vox advancing to the next age faster than GS.

[Shiber]

I considered sending Eli a feeler, but I'd rather if we sent this as a response to Vox's next response. That way it'd be harder for them to say no.

[nbarclay]

The section regarding embargos is not restricted to just the free techs, but it leaves Vox free to negotiate better deals for other teams than for us if they so desire. The section regarding the free techs does assure us a good deal on those particular techs (at least to the extent that Vox gives anyone but their new hosts a good deal), but does not impose any conditions regarding deals on anything but those techs. So while there is perhaps some overlap, each provision has its own distinct purpose.

Regarding the timing of the sale or trade of Vox's bonus techs, I would argue that allowing other teams to purchase a tech significantly earlier than we are allowed to would be a clear violation of "terms at least as favorable." After all, when the tech is supplied is one of the terms of the deal.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The section regarding embargos is not restricted to just the free techs, but it leaves Vox free to negotiate better deals for other teams than for us if they so desire. The section regarding the free techs does assure us a good deal on those particular techs (at least to the extent that Vox gives anyone but their new hosts a good deal), but does not impose any conditions regarding deals on anything but those techs. So while there is perhaps some overlap, each provision has its own distinct purpose.

Isn't that a bit too much to ask?
Eli said that he doesn't want to make game-long commitments. While they don't have any plans to embargo us at the moment, he says, he won't sign any treaty that would completely shut off this possibility. He said that we wouldn't sign a treaty that would include a game-long commitment not to attack RP, even though we may not have any plans for such actions in the present.
We already have a clause that prevents them from embargoing us with their bonus techs. I seriously doubt that Vox will ever be the first researcher of any other tech.

Regarding the timing of the sale or trade of Vox's bonus techs, I would argue that allowing other teams to purchase a tech significantly earlier than we are allowed to would be a clear violation of "terms at least as favorable." After all, when the tech is supplied is one of the terms of the deal.

Still, it's a lacunal wording that allows room for maneuvering and personal interpretation. I recommend that we use Octavian X's wording or something by that line.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Shiber
Eli said that he doesn't want to make game-long commitments. While they don't have any plans to embargo us at the moment, he says, he won't sign any treaty that would completely shut off this possibility. He said that we wouldn't sign a treaty that would include a game-long commitment not to attack RP, even though we may not have any plans for such actions in the present.

Do I sense typical Voxian behavior again? I thought they'd have learned their lesson.

The matter of embargoing the free tech or not is crucial and can screw us seriously. While it seemingly may set us back only a few turns, these turns may be the make or break in the race for ToE, or (if the free tech is Nationalism, which is not sure once the game is upgraded) makes us vulnerable to attacks while we don't have this advance, but others do.

I wouldn't give a damn what Vox says on this point. My trust in them is zero and won't raise again for the whole game. I want a Lego guarantee, as it was mentioned in the chat initiating the peace negotiations. It was the condition for me agreeing to Lego's desire for peace, vondrack said, that this wouldn't be a problem, and unless this condition is met, I won't ratify any peace between us and Vox.