After action report "The Great Bobian War"

[asleepathewheel]

good thread

I am a bit suprised at how much stock you put into our victory over Vox. I guess theres a much different perspective a world away from ground zero of a conflict, but we didn't have a superpowerful army afterwards. And what we did have were primarily slowmovers, pikes mi's and cats, very few wc's. And we had very little of a navy. So, unless my memory is horribly off, we couldn't really afford to fight a two front war-didn't have the pieces at the start of it, and by the time we had a credible navy, Spain was about to be overrun, so we coudln't divert any forces north. We did discuss doing this I think. Its all very fuzzy to me.

[GhengisFarb™]

More documents:

**CLASSIFIED INFORMATION**
**OFFICIAL WARMONGERS ONLY**

OFFICIAL ORDERS

General Aggie you are hereby ordered to assume
command of Task Force Ziggy. You are to locate
and eliminate target dubbed Zargon X.

We believe this target is a laundy soap of deadly
scope. MOPP equipment will be issued prior to
departure. Avoid contact with local authorities.

***WARMONGER HIGH COMMAND***
***NEED TO KNOW STATUS ONLY***

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
The real victors of the war, of course, didn't lose a single hitpoint.

This is rather interesting and I've heard it from practically every GS and RP member, that we've practically handed out victory to Lego. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

Think about the pre-war status quo. Did either GoW or ND have a shot of victory as things stood? Hell no, even RP was poised to become the dominant nation on Bob thanks to their superior land and resources, with the potential to outdo GS in the (very) long run.

Did Lego benefit from this war? Of course they did, and tremendously, and I am still not saying that GoW or ND have victory assured for either one of us, but at least our chances for it are now a long shot but not impossibly remote.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by ZargonX
As an insider, I also appreciate the teams coming and discussing the issue involved with the Bobian War. I would also appreciate it you would continue to declassify information, including, but not limited to, troops movements, production plans, and future goals.

* ZargonX gets his notepad...

**Glorious Warmonger Game Objectives**

(In chronological order)


1) Destroy Lego

Motive: just because

2) Destroy the Gathering Storm

Motive: bring Vox back

3) Destroy Neu Demogyptica

Motive: because they still haven't sent those pics of Claudia Schiffer I asked for. And to resettle Lux Invicta

4) Auto-raze all GoW Cities

Motive: a Lux vs Vox space race will be fun to watch.


**END**

[Arrian]

I was going through our old threads pre-Bob war and I found a gem (in terms of "oh my, what if?") of my own creation:

07-07-2003 12:09

Calling all StormHawks! Calling all StormHawks!

A PROPOSAL: "OPERATION ROGUE WAVE"

Here it is, folks:

I want to set up an alliance with GoW to attack ND & RP, with us getting RPs land (or most of it) and them getting ND's land.

I think we have a window of opportunity here that shouldn't be missed. We are militarily powerful and have 4-move galleys (and a lot of them). GoW now has the tech for Riders, and we can upgrade mobile forces to Knights. We can provide them with the iron they would lose if they attack ND. I don't think ND has Chivalry, and if they really are researching Engineering, they can only get Chiv soon via trade with Gow or us, I think. RP is still REXing.

We have not yet completed our luxury deal with RP, due to a disagreement re: NAP. That suits me just fine.

I would want an explicit alliance with GoW stating that they will attack ND, we will attack RP, and setting up the future border between us. I would also seek at least a 20-turn NAP between GoW and GS starting when the war ends.

Make no mistake: I am proposing a war of aggression, plain and simple.

What say you, StormHawks (and StormDoves, of course)?

-Arrian

This was shot down in short order. Basically because people thought that if we presented the idea to GoW and they didn't like it, they would leak it to other teams and we'd be screwed.

It was, IIRC, my one and only "evil plan." It's especially amusing because we ended up pouring so many resources into a fight to save RP, not conquer them.

I felt free to disclose this because it was just an idea - and one we never pursued. Apologies to our beloved allies, RP, of course. You had such tasty land!

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Master Zen


This is rather interesting and I've heard it from practically every GS and RP member, that we've practically handed out victory to Lego. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

Think about the pre-war status quo. Did either GoW or ND have a shot of victory as things stood? Hell no, even RP was poised to become the dominant nation on Bob thanks to their superior land and resources, with the potential to outdo GS in the (very) long run.

Did Lego benefit from this war? Of course they did, and tremendously, and I am still not saying that GoW or ND have victory assured for either one of us, but at least our chances for it are now a long shot but not impossibly remote.

It didn't benifit Lego directly, but rather indirectly. A war between Bobians meant no invasion of Legoland, which many of us believe = Lego victory. Leave them alone with that gigantic continent of theirs, and they will win. That was the basic thought. Unless, of course, you or ND can unite Bob in time to surpass Lego, despite Lego's inevitable intervention to prevent said unification (this would have to happen reasonably soon).

So that's what we're saying. Not that ND & GoW hurt their own chances of victory. Your odds of winning have increased... it's just they are still well behind Legos, and many turns have gone by. The clock is ticking.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Not having been in the game at the time, it does seem to me that most of GS are only saying it is good for Lego. Not that it was bad for GoW. All teams other than Lego had the same problem, they could not win with the land they held at the time.
The only question was how to get more and from whom, when and how.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Oh we're digging up postings now. Let's see if my completely insane ones (even by GoW standards) are still around.

Of course the obvious:

Look, I couldn't believe it, but GS is willing to discuss allowing us a beachhead.

Here is what I say.

We agree to their peace.

Get everyone together, and say we need 20 or so turns before we can attack ND.

Now, Lego, ND, and Vox all need in on this. During those 20 turns, ND gifts us our land and we get our payment for this war.

We ship a mighty stack of pillaging to our new beachhead. I am thinking plenty of riders and 10 or so muskets. More muskets the better.

Lego ships over a conquering force to Bob. We should allow Vox to ship over what they have to Estonia as well, to help defend the beachhead.

When it comes that GS thinks we are attacking ND, Lego and ND attack GS on southern Bob, our stack of pillaging heads right through RP and into the Heart of the GS. Remaining riders can begin breaking down RP and making any holes in blockades for the pillaging force.

With just 4 Riders in the stack of muskets, we could pillage 4 squares and have them all safely under the musket guard again.

I believe Lego will agree to this to remove both GS and RP from the game. I would suggest gifting all of estonia back to VOX, but that is because I think it would hurt GS more than simply taking them over and I'm a vindictive jerk.

GS is so keen on seeing a world pile on, by god let's give em one.

Most the rest is paranoid ramblings:

Why is GS been so quiet lately?

Just a warning how vulnerable our capitol is to a naval landing. With the lighthouse, isn't it possible for them to have a task force well out of sight off our shores?

This is the same tactic as Inchon/inchoff as well, BTW, so not without precident in the minds of GS.

Back before our mutual war:

Just an idea, needs refining:

Contact GS (My home comp is down right now, someone else will have to):

Tell them ND attacked
Tell them we want to remain neutral
Explain our position to them:
we cannot attack ND, they cannot attack RP, but perhaps there is a way we can both profit here.

Tell them the following:
We are signed to a deal, they are signed to a deal, and these deals are contrary to each other. It is in our mutual best interest therefore for one of us to get out of their deal. The only ways to do this are as follows:

Us backstab ND: Not going to happen
Them backstab RP: Not going to happen
Us ensure the swiftest destruction of RP, thus eliminating the ND contract and opening ourselves to new ones with GS.

Ask for a RoP, but make it understood that ND will be informed if GS is comming from our northern border. We agree to allow them to tell RP of our movements as well.

Why they should sign:

RP seems willing to gift away threatened cities, we agree to threaten the cities that GS wants first. After all, it still reduces RP cities, does it not? We have no beef with GS.... It still accomplishes our goal of wiping out RP AND it gets GS what they desire from this conflict.

Agree that we do not interfere with them and ND, they do not interfere with us and RP. Perhaps even hint at the possibility of straight up sharing Bob with GS. Let us destroy RP, we will help with ND after our deal with them is done?

By the time this is all over, Vox will have some force again, We get Lego building to war, even if ND is wiped out, with proper diplomacy, a good chunk of Bob to ourselves and Vox/Lego behind us, we can still screw GS.

And of course it wouldn't be complete without this little gem from the eye himself after the very first chat we had with you guys:

There is a very special place in hell waiting for you

[Master Zen]

I won't even dare to find my posts....

There is a very special place in hell waiting for you

save me a spot will ya?

[Arrian]

My attempts at devious evil planning pale in comparison.

-Arrian

[UnOrthOdOx]

That's just a sampling, too...

Where is the eye. I think he should come input some unbias review in this thread...

[Hot_Enamel]

Just as a matter of interest....

When GS accepted RP's alliance, accepted cities, and attempted to goad GoW into attacking, did anyone in the GS forum speak up and say that it possibly broke the GS-GoW NAP ?

In the GoW forum, we saw it as a blatant break of our NAP.
We could see, that within the Civ programming rules, a NAP was not broken because GS did not do the first attack. But this was one of the reasons for our claim that "you are treating us like AI".

I don’t really want to get into the argument if GS did break the NAP...we agree to disagree... but I am interested if it was unanimous in GS that their actions did not break the NAP.




And I agree with Aggie…
I felt I was a very lone voice in the GoW when I demanded that we immediately take the RP cities on the very turn they were given to GS.
Other members believed we could negotiate with GS (Given that we had a good relationship with them). We chose that route, and retreated from the cities.

I made about 3 different drafts of a “Public Announcement” trying to convince GoW that we should take the cities. In the end, MZ’s manifesto was published…but IMO, it was 3 turns too late.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Where is the eye. I think he should come input some unbias review in this thread...

Always watching.

Unfortunately, this thread is basically an unofficial sharing of info for kicks, and if I should say anything besides my own opinions or views of what happened, it may cause future ramifications. Unless, of course, the teams in question give me permission to reveal their dirty secrets.

As for my own opinions, I will stick solely to past events, almost entirely involving the war itself which I am sure will not affect the future game.

As far as the geo-political situation, I saw the GS-RP alliance forming quite a bit before it actually occurred. RP was getting desperate, almost certain the double hammer would fall on them, whereas it was clear at the time that GOW + ND would never allow GS a home on the main continent. I figured this staunch attitude would prevent GS from trying a 3-on-1 on RP, knowing that it would thereafter become a brutal 2-on-1 against GS, whereas they could keep it a 2-on-2 if they had allied with RP.

Militarily, the war was quite exciting.

RP's army at the onset was quite large, though it lacked Knights which I believe may have had a great impact on the war. ND managed to strike out with its 3-move Ansar to pillage roads and prevent RP from counter-attacking rather early on, after forcing the abandonment of Zaragosa due to the threat of ND striking past the front lines and taking an undefended Pamplona. The times when RP did counter-attack, it was too late in the campaign and they took similar losses to what they inflicted. By the time RP was ready to counter-attack, the need to defend two fronts and lack of material compared to 2 civs in their GA prevented any possible significant breakthrough without significant GS assistance, which was never really attempted in the West. Without it, the war in the West was merely a waiting game for ND to build up enough units to take out RP, who had lost most of its productive cities and whose counter-attack capability was sharply reduced with every action.

In the East, the biggest impact was probably GS preventing GOW from getting to Toledo 2 and then marching southwards from there. Had GS covered that tile, GOW might have been sufficiently bogged down to allow GS reinforcements to arrive and turn the tide when GOW had to eventually get off the mountains. Once "the Alamo" was created, GS needed to deliver a strong attack to wipe it out before it was reinforced... however, ND and GOW managed to combine forces and wiped out a fairly significant stack of GS Knights and Cats instead. IMO, that was basically the end of RP-GS' chances to be victorious. I was also amazed at how effective Leo's was in bolstering the GOW army. They know how I like to tease them how their early city placement and domestic planning showed they were warmongers who didn't realize you needed an economy to have a good army () but the building of Leo's was probably their best overall decision of the entire game, even if it did cost them 70 turns of production in their capital.

The war also saw a variety of military strategies employed to try and defeat opponents which were quite interesting to analyze.

ND struck out fast and quick with its Ansar Warriors and forced RP to withdraw from Zaragosa, one of its best cities, to avoid the threat of it being bypassed and Pamplona captured. Once RP was holed up in Pamplona, ND focused mainly on teaming up with GOW to deal with GS. RP made 1 or 2 counter-attacks (one of which almost captured Leon/Loewenmutt - though it was only possible due to the majority of ND's Ansar being out of action at the time and even if they had captured the city the ND Ansar would most likely have reigned havoc on the victors) but for the most part ND could ignore RP's presence and shuffle around Ansar to deal with GS once a road linking the West and the South had been finished.

In the East, GOW was hell-bent on avoiding combat any way possible. They danced around all over the map which was ultimately quite effective. Once the south had been conquered, GOW with the help of ND sought to defeat GS land forces, which it managed to do with the combined might of 2 civs in their GA + Leo's. After the first battle things were basically over.

I've always been rather curious about GS's strategy during the war. Their initial unloading and blocking of GOW in the East was quite good, but the failure to stop GOW from getting into the south and hoping so whole-heartedly that GOW would try to attack Toledo really paved the way for how the rest of the war would go. The BIGGEST mistake that GS made was allowing GOW and ND the opportunity to combine forces on a single front. As long as it was 1-on-1 on each side of the map GS had a shot at winning. As soon as GOW got formed up in the Alamo, there was no way GS could have driven them out, except, as I said, a strong forceful attack on the city - but only one which would have prevented ND from assisting in the defense of the city. As long as it was effectively 2-on-1 there was almost no chance of GS making any headway.

After either wiping out Alamo or stopping GOW first in the East, GS would then have had to have made a strong push in the West to dislodge the entrenching ND forces and drive them back across through the jungle. As long as ND held flat land in the West, GOW could help them pin down all GS+RP forces with their own reinforcements, which were eventually quite numerous due to Leo's.

Also, at some point the RP Army would have had to have been rebuilt around Knights as well, because even if all of this had occurred, GS' strength would not have been enough to push through the jungle up into ND and beyond.

For most of the war it was clear who had the initiative. Whenever GS tried to recover it, it always played right into GOW-ND's hands, and always ended badly for them (first battle SE of Alamo, Battle of Pamplona Forest, the landing in GOW's east). Other than those incidents, GS was always one step behind GOW-ND who so effectively used their forces together that any mistakes on GS's part would be severely punished (as they were).

Basically, from the very onset of the war recovering anything beyond RP territory would be a very tall order for GS, and doing so after GOW had penetrated into the south would have required a miracle. As MZ said earlier in the thread, at one point there were something like 70 ND-GOW-Lego Knight-equivalents vs. 30 GS ones. Even if you take out Lego's units and the losses each side incurred, GS would still have been greatly outnumbered (by superior units) - unless they were able to win spectacular victories with few losses.

So that was the war in a nutshell. Go fight another one, they're quite fun to watch from above.

[Aggie]

I'll admit it was something having Unortho and Mz as negotiators.. I'm have attacks of concience and try to make peace and before I'd gone a day into negotiations they'd turn the peace deal into evil plan #1001. It's amazing and I'm a little awestruck. My best evil plan was the "raze it all and leave the GS knight stack in the mountains" plan.

Here the actually wording cica ~290. [/QUOTE]
"5) The now you see it, know you don't. Our 30 riders let all the attack forces surround them at alamo, and then leave razing the city.

We destroy roads and take pamploma. Assuming the ND has attacked it first 15 of ours should win. Then the rest rush towards the mountains(attacking any units in the pass, if few).

They keep advancing(say 10 by now) to the outskirts of New Madrid and toledo(we might not do both, I am hesistant to commit to splitting without knowing the enemy positions).

Next turn we take those and the Gs port. Due to slow movement the GS super stack is unable to respond, resulting in extreme advantages for us with the isolated Gs units.

Unortho once said we need to reinforce our unpredicatableness, I say this does that and more.

[/QUOTE]

Just an insight into some of our options, usually we'd make some plans and most couldn't happen for some reason or another, but they were made none the less. At this time we were considering the vulnerablity of Merida(before ND took it over) so we were wondering if it was even necessary to hold these cities. our plan was to lure GS/RP forces to the Alamo. what would happen then was what this option refered to(for the record there were 5 other options).

This plan was superceded when RP moved their stack toward Pamploma and the 1st big battle in that forest took place and we also launched the 1st big push toward Pamploma.

Also i'm glad to see you were able to add in some good comments Trip, there are advantages to being the all seeing eye.

Aggie

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Arrian
This was shot down in short order. Basically because people thought that if we presented the idea to GoW and they didn't like it, they would leak it to other teams and we'd be screwed.

It was, IIRC, my one and only "evil plan." It's especially amusing because we ended up pouring so many resources into a fight to save RP, not conquer them.

I felt free to disclose this because it was just an idea - and one we never pursued. Apologies to our beloved allies, RP, of course. You had such tasty land!

-Arrian

This was my chief strategic fear from near the start of the game, actually. I should post the thread I made before the game even started and the later arguments I made that a GS-GoW alliance was the absolute worst thing that could EVER happen to the planet.