After action report "The Great Bobian War"

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos
This was my chief strategic fear from near the start of the game, actually. I should post the thread I made before the game even started and the later arguments I made that a GS-GoW alliance was the absolute worst thing that could EVER happen to the planet.

Yes, yes! Please post that. That sounds good.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Just as a matter of interest....

When GS accepted RP's alliance, accepted cities, and attempted to goad GoW into attacking, did anyone in the GS forum speak up and say that it possibly broke the GS-GoW NAP ?

In the GoW forum, we saw it as a blatant break of our NAP.
We could see, that within the Civ programming rules, a NAP was not broken because GS did not do the first attack. But this was one of the reasons for our claim that "you are treating us like AI".

I don’t really want to get into the argument if GS did break the NAP...we agree to disagree... but I am interested if it was unanimous in GS that their actions did not break the NAP.

Do the *particulars* really matter? As you've said here, it seems the spirit of an agreement is what really matters, not the letter.

If that is so, all of the following caused whatever price they did:

* GoW attacking RP, whom they were allied to
* GS accepting cities from RP, while GoW was "at war" (BUT NOT IN GAME) with RP and GS-GoW had a NAP
* Legoland actively helping GoW and ND destroy RP, with whom they had a NAP

As I see it, on technical grounds you could offer an argument that none of them really violate those agreements. In terms of the spriit of such agreements, however, all of them do.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Master Zen

This is rather interesting and I've heard it from practically every GS and RP member, that we've practically handed out victory to Lego. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

In a sense, MZ, you've got a point. The tile count for each continent divided by the No. of Civs starting on each continent gave Lego > 400, the Bobians < 200, and GS & Vox 99 each. All sides but one had to try and do something about it, and the geography meant it was not surprising that Bob would be the key battleground in the early mid-game.

So from that perspective the die was cast in 4000BC. The point remains, however, that the longer the combatants were meatgrinding, the further they would fall behind the non-combatants, of which one was in pole position to win the game.

If GS hadn't made the mistakes, of which the ones I witnessed ultimately involved stepping off hills & mountains, we'd still be there scrunching shields now, and even if we'd succeeded in the short term there would have been another war soon after to try get rid of us.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by vondrack
At this moment, I would like to note that we did not want to get involved in the destruction of RP, at least not directly (read below). We made this very clear to GoW/ND, agreeing to commit our own troops only to the defense of their homeland territories. I fully acknowledge, though, that pretending Lego "did not enter the war against RP" would be ridiculous. Yes, we helped to free GoW/ND's hands. However, from our PoV, it was an inevitable side-effect of our decision to oppose the GS expansion onto Bob.\

Ah, but you did get involved in the destruction of RP. I know relations between RP and Lego were certainly not stellar at the point I came back to my team in August and found them in disrepair, but there is a point that must be made here. In the eyes of a number of people on my team, Legoland violated a non-aggression treaty with Roleplay Team when Legoland chose to actively support and provide aid to a belligerent party in an existential war with RP Team.

So every time I tried to convince my team that we should try to repair relations with you guys and that getting you guys to side with us was the key to turning the tide and winning rather than losing in the long-run, the response I was continuously met with was "Why should we trust them? They betrayed us.", etc. Over time, the resentment on RP Team toward Legoland just grew and grew... by the midpoint of the war (not even when I switched to being blunt when talking with people from Legoland about what we knew was really going on) it would be safe to say that Legoland was probably despised even more than Glory of War...

After the last chat with vondrack, I didn't even bother to post most of the chat and censored much of the parts I did post to the RP Forum because I knew posting it would accomplish absolutely nothing other than getting the team all riled up again about how much they resented Legoland's betrayal.

These days, almost all of that is gone thankfully. People who were that upset either just went back into inactivity or calmed back down when the game outcome really no longer mattered to RP Team. Hell, even relations with GoW can be reasonably nice from now on as far as we're concerned. Earlier, the two of us on RP Team who did somewhat "go native" when it came to trying to repair relations with Legoland (in particular) and kept trying to turn that around when the rest of our team was against it were Aidun and I.

From the very beginning, we put a lot of emphasis on keeping our alliance secret - it was obvious that as long as GS were planning for one opponent less, we had the element of surprise on our side. As RP kept calling for help (I honestly say that the last chat with Arnelos really hurt - from the personal PoV... as I had to tell him things I knew were very cruel... sorry for that, Arnelos), it was impossible to maintain the "neutral stance cover" for too long. In the end, it was mostly about keeping our military presence on Bob secret.

Your alliance was far less secret than you thought, for a variety of reasons. To be honest, the only reason I and others didn't see it earlier than we did was that we allowed ourselves to be willfully deluded into believing that Legoland "wouldn't do that". That despite whatever souring of relations had taken place earlier, you guys wouldn't get yourselves actively involved in our destruction. It was little more than wishful thinking that unfortunately clouded our judgement during the early stages of the war.

It did not take all that long, however, before the weight of evidence eventually had us convinced that Legoland was supporting Glory of War and ND. First, there was Master Zen. We spent enough time around him that we noticed the sea change in his attitude and his level of confidence about events that were unfolding. Over time, it became more and more apparent that MZ had some great coup he'd managed diplomatically that he could hardly contain himself from revealing. Given what else was going on, we already suspected what it was, which caused us to redouble our efforts to convince Legoland to switch sides.

The problem, as we saw it, was that Legoland's leadership seemed to have gone into tunnel-vision concerning the wisdom of allowing GoW and ND to take over all of Bob. Our goal was thus to do everything in our power, throw every argument we could, just be downright annoying if need be, to convince at least one or two Legolanders of folly of helping the GoW-ND alliance achieve victory over all of Bob. Our goal was then to use those individuals to argue our case inside Legoland and back them up with as many conciliatory gestures as we could possibly make to Legoland. At least in my estimation, the outcome of the war and RP's survival on Bob was going to be made or broken based upon whether Legoland switched sides.

In the end, it became VERY apparent that we weren't going to get Legoland to switch sides. As a last ditch desperate attempt, I told I think ZargonX first and then vondrack straight out what we knew about their alliance with GoW and ND, how long we'd known it, how long earlier we'd suspected it, and why we thought they were marching themselves into a more dangerous world than the one they could work with us to build.

That last-ditch desperate attempt did get vondrack to come out of hiding and talk about what he mentions in his post. It did not, however, get Legoland to switch sides.

As for other ways in which we knew about the Legoland involvement, we had several beyond just watching MZ. Part of it was analyzing and discussing the reactions we were getting from various Legoland negotiators. I remember that the responses and reactions for Kloreep and ZargonX were the most helpful since their seeming aloofness and very coy attitude in negotiations caught us as being yet another sign of what was really going on. Finally, we had some rather intimate details by mid-war of what Legoland was really doing that I'm not willing to talk about until the game is over.

When everything from all of those sources was put together, it did not take all that long for us, especiallly the slow ones to accept it like me, to realize what was really at work. We also have some other theories about what was going on and still is, but obviously I'm not going to discuss that... that can be saved for another time.

8) And yes... at a certain moment, it became obvious that GoW/ND were clearly winning and RP/GS had very little to no hope of turning the tide (with no saltpeter). Our help was no longer really needed... I believe the cheap and fast gunpowder research we did for GoW/ND allowed them to raise quite a lot of extra riders & ansars... while still benefitting from the muskets (and generally, from knowing about the saltpeter deposits).
But we haven't considered a backstab or even withdrawal at any time, as... as... well, first, as we are not really heavy into backstabbing... and second, as we would pretty much lose all of the non-tangible, trust-related gains - remaining true to our alliance through the uncertain times till the victorious end was always considered a better (the only, in fact) option.

See, this is precisely the problem from the PoV of many on RP Team. Legoland had a non-aggression pact with Roleplay Team (in fact, technically that non-aggression pact is STILL active, I believe). Furthermore, Legoland and Roleplay Team in earlier years had had quite a cooperative relationship which only later broke down over (I believe) a poorly written treaty. When it became apparent that Legoland was the one supporting GoW/ND in their war to destroy RP, violating every bit of spirit left in the Legoland-RP treaty, that backstab was taken far more harshly by many on RP Team than the Glory of War one was. Afteralll, the entire team had expected Glory of War to behave that way.

The very fact that some on the team, principally Aidun and myself, were working to get Legoland to switch sides was actually met with resistance by some.

All I can say is that after being on Roleplay Team and seeing how people react to what they perceive to be near universal betrayal from all quarters, I think I can rather intimately understand what is driving Mr. Lucky in the ISDGs... in fact, the idea of holing ourselves up on Stormia and remaining at war to cause GoW and ND WW for the rest of eternity was seriously discussed in our forum before we'd finally been pushed off Bob and people either left or calmed back down.

Ultimately, however, the right thing WAS done (as many of us ultimately insisted) and RP Team has continued to behave honorably. Grudges are dead and irrelevant at this point for a team whose only purpose for continued survival is to play a friendly spoiler role for any civ(s) that wish to at least give us some role in wider events.

GS, RP - on a personal level: sorry for what happened. From another (individual) PBEM game of mine, I know how it feels to see one's meticulously crafted plans or a tidy, happily developing empire to collapse. Honestly, I have come close to believing that PBEM, and especially DGs with the insane amount of work contributed by their players, are simply not my cup of tea. Crushing the AI is somehow... more enjoyable, I would say. Crushing humans is not much fun, unless I'm able to consider them a true enemy (which I'm not). Crushing a friend or friends brings me little joy, knowing how much efforts must have been wasted for the defeated party... It's only slightly better than getting crushed, knowing how much efforts I wasted myself, actually...

Yeah, you and I discussed this at the last Legoland-RP chat we held at mid/late war (as written about above). As I said then, I do not like to hold grudges and I do what I can to keep these games as far away from becoming "personal" as possible. I've played enough highly cutthroat games over the years where I've both been backstabbed by friends and backstabbed friends to have learned it's just an accepted part of how the games work and it does not mean that people are untrustworthy individuals or upstanding people outside of playing an extremely cutthroat game.

I've certainly caused as much misery over the years through backstabs as anyone has ever brought on me, so I don't take it personally. Everyone is in the game to win and people will do what they have in order to meet that goal. Deception is just another tool which can be useful for meeting it. I understand, however, that a lot of people came into the PTWDG thinking very differently... and a lot of them got burnt out and left.

In retrospect, I wish we would have remembered/known to have done more to warn people just what this type of game means. People say this is the first game of its type, but it really isn't. It really really helps to keep yourself from getting too emotionally invested or to have a thick skin if you're going to play such a cutthroat game. Quite frankly, multiplayer DG's may deserve a warning label...

[Hot Mustard]

This has been a great read.

I have just one question for the other teams:

Given RP's starting position, would you have attempted to settle westward across the continent, sealing it off from the Northern civs?

(Please try to answer without bias from what has occured in the game.)

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Deception is just another tool which can be useful for meeting it. I understand, however, that a lot of people came into the PTWDG thinking very differently... and a lot of them got burnt out and left.

In retrospect, I wish we would have remembered/known to have done more to warn people just what this type of game means. People say this is the first game of its type, but it really isn't. It really really helps to keep yourself from getting too emotionally invested or to have a thick skin if you're going to play such a cutthroat game. Quite frankly, multiplayer DG's may deserve a warning label...

I agree. Perhaps its just me, but Gathering Storm has been hit the hardest by this. We've lost a veritable who's who of the strat forum. Nbarclay. R.I.P. Dominae. R.I.P. Aeson. R.I.P. and other great players like Alva and Frustrated Poet and Shiber, no more. I can count on one hand, literally, the people who have posted in our forum recently, and two of them, Cort Haus and VMXA1 were mid-season acquisitions. Well, ok, there are a couple more than a handful, but its nothing like it was at the beginning. Luckily for GS, Cort Haus is in charge and has done a fantastic job transitioning us to whatever the future holds...

I'm not sure why these players have all moved on, maybe burnout, I know Nathan was particularly burdened by the game, and what you see of Stormia is a result of his and Dominae's work. Maybe it was that we as a team were used to beating up the AI (easily) and just didn't know what it took to plot and scheme in MP play, hence the ahem, honor code, ahem. I know I certainly could have had a thicker skin at certain points... I mean Sir Ralph was begging us to build a military, but we were so focused on build build build. Luckily the few units we had saved us at the start of the Vox war. A bit too trusting, especially when we were planning to attack Vox, though in the bit distant future.

Anyway, that's just my pov, my teammates, present and former, might disagree with my assessment.

[Aggie]

I agree with all those who find SP more fun in the sense that your not destroying what another person has built up(and since the AI has that 1/2 production advanatage, it doesn't even spend that much). I find it very hard destroying what another person has built quite a long time developing.

For example, the turn after we took the southern cities me and MZ had a chat with Togas and Arnelos. I literally felt sick during that chat know we were basically dismantling RP's nation. That was the reason that in many chats with both GS and RP, I'd find myself looking for solutions that unfortunately were simply not to be found. Including many proposals that I knew would be rejected but that we had to try.

This does bring us to the diplomatic side of the war. Almost from the moment we took the south, there were negotiations of one form of another to bring about the end of hostilities. Unfortunatly I suspect many of these are still considered state secrets since plans that were discarded then might one day come to pass. But the fact that they occured does indicate that there was a desire to find a peaceful resolution, unfortunately these talks didn't bring fruit.

Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Personally, I find Roleplay's planning and strategy the most fascinating. They really went all out to planning ahead and setting pieces in motion throughout the game. If I had to choose one forum to be able to enter and read it would be Roleplay's just to see how all of the planning and implementation came about.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by dejon
This has been a great read.

I have just one question for the other teams:

Given RP's starting position, would you have attempted to settle westward across the continent, sealing it off from the Northern civs?

(Please try to answer without bias from what has occured in the game.)

Of course.
RP did nothing wrong trying to claim as much land and the best land as possible.
I assume every team tries to do the same.

What they did do wrong was upset their potential best geographical ally. Had that not occured, RP would have had someone to back their claim up.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I'll admit it was something having Unortho and Mz as negotiators.. I'm have attacks of concience and try to make peace and before I'd gone a day into negotiations they'd turn the peace deal into evil plan #1001. It's amazing and I'm a little awestruck.

I think MZ and I kinda feed off each other.

That said, one of these games, I really want a chance to work with Arnelos as well. Hell, I was against him on the old Hawk/DIA arguments, against him here...for once, I'ld like a chance to work WITH him on something and maybe catch a break.

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel


Of course.
RP did nothing wrong trying to claim as much land and the best land as possible.
I assume every team tries to do the same.

What they did do wrong was upset their potential best geographical ally. Had that not occured, RP would have had someone to back their claim up.

And I still do not understand what happened there, frankly.

I just know Ghengis and Togas had a pissing match and our forum turned into a death on RP no matter the cost from that point, more or less.

I DO know we went into the game hoping RP was close and wanting to ally with them more than anyone else, figuring they might enjoy allying with the 'evil' team in the game.

RP: WHY NO KNIGHTS?

Or rather, have any of your members changed their opinion on the value of Med Inf vs Knights?

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Arnelos


Do the *particulars* really matter? As you've said here, it seems the spirit of an agreement is what really matters, not the letter.

If that is so, all of the following caused whatever price they did:

* GoW attacking RP, whom they were allied to
* GS accepting cities from RP, while GoW was "at war" (BUT NOT IN GAME) with RP and GS-GoW had a NAP
* Legoland actively helping GoW and ND destroy RP, with whom they had a NAP

As I see it, on technical grounds you could offer an argument that none of them really violate those agreements. In terms of the spriit of such agreements, however, all of them do.

Arnie,
I agree, there have been some very suspect deals made that could be considered as not in the spirit of the agreement.
Certainly GoW is not, and has never put itself on a pedistal, as a shining example of playing with honor.

But also do not forget the "exploring warrior incident" GoW had with RP.
I know you were not around during that time, but from the GoW PoV, RP screwed us over after we thought we had a tech deal.



The "Legoland actively helping GoW and ND destroy RP, with whom they had a NAP" is an interesting one.

If Lego signs a NAP with RP.
Then RP signs an alliance with GS.
Is Lego then forced into a NAP with GS ?

The Lego/GoW deal was quite explicit in that they would NOT help us in the war against RP.
Indirectly they did, by doing a bit of chest thumping with GS. But that was done more to protect GoW than it was to hurt RP.

What a tangled web we weave


GS said they backed off in our east when they saw the Lego knights. Trust me... by the time GS finally got into position, we had enough Riders in the area anyway, and Lego wasnt needed.
In fact, I think that the GS knight invasion of GoW's east might of found themselves with the "here one turn - gone the next" disappearing act had they attempted to attack.

[Panzer32]

Here's a pictorial description of a few events in the war:

During the first stage of the war, I was the leader of GoW, and thus I have many more shots of then rather than later in the war.

Here is an early plan that I made, when we finally decided Bilbao was to be taken (note that a) Toledo was given to GS that turn and b) There were about 12 riders in that stack.) A pretty ambitious plan...



The Butcher of Bilbao...

[Panzer32]

Very early, just got to the RP border and look whats waiting...


This is the turn we ended in the hills. It was a risky decision, but one that allowed us to reach the crossroads the NEXT TURN, which gained us 4 cities in the turn after that.

[Panzer32]

Unfortunatly Ghengis has deleted his "operation southern bell" pic from the web but it involved moving onto the crossroads and attacking 4 cities at once, all of which we were successfull, and it got us Salamanka AKA The Alamo.

This one is Aggie's shot. We attacked several RP units IIRC in Pamplona forest but I'm not sure if this is the famed battle of Pamplona forest... note the GS troops in the south that we were unsure whether they would go north or west. They ended up camping out on the mountain 63 of Alamo, where the 2/4 pike is now.

[Panzer32]

This is 7 turns later (end of turn). The Battle of Pamplona forest (the real one) had finished the turn before this move of us from Alamo. It was quite confusing to us that GS seemed to see where the saltpeter was and was camping out near it...



Here's 1 turn later, when we reclaimed the saltpeter tile:



After that, GS decided to leave Bob. We used reinforcements and ND's great help to take Pamplona in 400 AD, about 400 years after the war had begun!!