After action report "The Great Bobian War"

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
In fact, we're still waiting for "GoW's half of Bob" to become manifest

Yes...we are...

[vulture]

That was the bit Lego overlooked - we don't have a 2 civ Bb, just ND with GoW as their semi-autonomous attack dogs

Back on another subject, I was one of the few in GS who thought that our actions with cities on Bob was sailing close to the wind re the NAP with GoW, particularly since the agreement ahd been done in the 'spirit of the agreement' sense. I did briefly consider leaving GS because of it, but decided not to because the other GS members were quite sincere in their view of the subject: if the attitude has been "yes, it's breaking the spirit of the NAP, but since GoW have screwed every single deal we've ever had with them in some way, they deserve it" then I would have left.

Ultimately, as (I think) Nathan said, you can draw the line more or less anywhere on the continuum from 'not attacking friendly units directly' through to 'not doing anything to hurt the NAP partener in any way' (such as building a university in one of our cities, boosting our science and indirectly hurting GoW's chances of winning the game... ). For me, accepting the cities and denying GoW RoP was just on the wrong side of the line, for many others it was close to but not over the line. No-one seriously expected GoW to see it as anything other than an act of agression though.

And despite Legoland explaining some of their thinking, it still doesn't make sense to me. In their position I would have waited to see how things were developing. If RP / GS started doing well, then help GoW / ND (which we'd pretty much assumed would be the case if we started winning). ND / GoW started winning, step in and help RP. RP had more territory, so help them maintain that, assuming GS would get some RP territory. The end result is then all 4 civs are pretty much equal, and have been investing heavily in military. Only one of them has a GA left, and none of them come close to matching Lego in terms of production. Their odds of a succesful invasion of Lego are small - no-one would be able to commit enough troops to do the job without running the risk of being backstabbed by at least one ally - and it is in everyone's favour to be the one doing the backstabbing. Lego are in no way threatened until there are only 2 civs left worth bothering with. With Estonia having no saltpetre and likely no rubber either (unless we are very lucky), there are now only 2 significant civs left outside of Lego - congratulations to Lego: you've manufactured the one situation that was dangerous to you IMHO.

[UnOrthOdOx]

So, um...

At what point did this thread turn from friendly sharing of information to critiquing other team's actions and rather transparant propoganda anyway?

Hey, RP, can you explain why you ultimately decided to stick around? Really.

Why do you want to stay? I don't think I could, frankly.

In all honesty, I feel becoming a minor player is a fate worse than death. Don't understand it at all. If you all remember back I was the only one not on GS saying the same thing back during Vox as well, so I haven't changed and it's nothing personal against RP, just something I don't understand too well.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by vulture
And despite Legoland explaining some of their thinking, it still doesn't make sense to me. In their position I would have waited to see how things were developing.

Hm, the problem was we were not really round the corner - for anyone. Considering how quickly the war between GS and Vox was over, waiting for who'd start to lose might have ended up with us taking sides only when the war would already be decided.

Keep in mind that even acting with no delay, LEF was still ~2 turns late. True, we might have speeded them up a bit by establishing an RoP a bit earlier... but we did not have the knights built in the first place. Gunpowder was researched fast because of it was a joint project (and frankly, it was not our plan to research gunpowder until it was decided to take sides).

I may only restate what I said in my first post in this thread - we chose a solution we felt allowed us to stay in control of what was happening, at least to a certain degree. Sitting the war out would mean we'd be hoping the war would go "well" for us (whatever that would be at the time) and that if it did not, that we would be able to make a difference then by entering it on the losing side...

Whether we manufactured our own fall or not... that remains to be seen... I do not think the geopolitics are as simple and straightforward as some seem to believe now.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Hey, RP, can you explain why you ultimately decided to stick around? Really.

They are ROLEPLAY, they can still be the "kingmakers."

At least that is my assessment.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I don't buy that either, they claim most their membership has lost interest.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by vondrack

Whether we manufactured our own fall or not... that remains to be seen... I do not think the geopolitics are as simple and straightforward as some seem to believe now.

Perhaps things are not straightforward. Opinions are divided as to the strength of Legos's current position, even from people from the same team.

For all we know Legoland may be a doughnut with a big hole in the middle!

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Hey, RP, can you explain why you ultimately decided to stick around? Really.

Why do you want to stay? I don't think I could, frankly.

In all honesty, I feel becoming a minor player is a fate worse than death. Don't understand it at all. If you all remember back I was the only one not on GS saying the same thing back during Vox as well, so I haven't changed and it's nothing personal against RP, just something I don't understand too well.

I think I can answer that from a Voxian perspective. Those of us that are left are still having some fun.

After the relocation to our Voxtavia rock we put our efforts into getting the most out of it that we could. HarryH started the ministry of the interior planning for a while and then it went to me back in September or so. For me personally I've been enjoying seeing what can be done to "start over". It's not something that you really experience in an SP game. You either win or you're done.

[Arrian]

So, um...

At what point did this thread turn from friendly sharing of information to critiquing other team's actions and rather transparant propoganda anyway?

I don't see that occurring. There is discussion of Lego's choices, yeah, but I can honestly say it's simple curiousity, since nearly all of us were surprised by what they did. I think we have a better understanding of why now, though some of us remain a bit puzzled.

There is no propoganda here, just personal opinions. That happens when you analyze something. There is no thread in the GS forum coordinating our responses or anything like that. In fact, when I first started posting in this thread, I did so entirely on impulse - responding to Aggie's original post, in the spirit of that post. There were suggestions by some in GS that we shouldn't say anything, because it would degenerate into another problem for us. I hope that isn't the case.

That being said, I think we've hashed out the Legoland angle enough. Let's drop it.

-Arrian

[ZargonX]

For all we know Legoland may be a doughnut with a big hole in the middle!

Yeah, for all you guys know, we could have a huge inland sea in the middle of all those tiles you've been so diligently calculating

[Tiberius]

For all we know Legoland may be a doughnut with a big hole in the middle!

That won't happen again, that I can promise! (and H_E knows what I'm talking about )

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

For all we know Legoland may be a doughnut with a big hole in the middle!

That would be so funny. Actually I agree that things are not as straightforward as they might appear. I've noted earlier that many issue that came up in negotiations have not been mentioned. This implies that though the pot has cooled down this game is still at least on simmer. I think of it as a volcano that is dormant, not extinct.

Right now there are 4 teams with a chance to win outright and 2 others who could be kingmakers. Interactions between teams will be the deciding factors more than tile count or even raw production. To be honest I have no idea how these interactions will play out in the future. Its possible that old alliances will be changed or even reversed and old friends will be on opposite sides of conflicts.

Now lets gets back to what happened, not what will happen.

I have 3 questions for RP.

1. Why did you not try to counterattack Salamnaca the turn we took it, simple math says that we could have had no more than 2/3 Riders there?

2. What was the purpose of you large move of troops later on toward "The Alamo"? Was it to tie our forces into a defense of this town or was it a true offesnive threat.

3. Did we get a GL in Pamploma forest when you destroyed our forces there, is that the reason you use pike or did you simply want to make a point that you still bite. This was in my opinion a move a agonized over at the time(and to some degree still regret), but in the end decided I would rather have you attacking than fortified in Pamploma.

Aggie

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Tiberius
That won't happen again, that I can promise! (and H_E knows what I'm talking about )

And anyone who read that particular thread.

[Arrian]

Reading that thread caused me pain. It was brilliantly done, but sickening nonetheless.

-Arrian

[GhengisFarb™]

Could someone link to the said thread?