Ibero-american civilizations

[yellfromhell]

One thing I forgot:

When I said in both cases (Portugal and Holland) the head of the power was in the european countries until the colonies independence, I should have made an exception for a period of time in the portuguese case: during Napoleons invasion, the portuguese king moved to Brazil, and so the head of the empire.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
I commited and error not saying "Pancho Villa was the only man IN ALL THE 20TH CENTURY that invaded USA continental territory". I appologize for that. About Pancho Villa being a bandit that robbed people, well, that can be discussed. If you consider legendary Robin Hood a bandit, well then Pancho Villa was a bandit. Anyway, if he was or not a bandit thats not the problem: in fact he did occupy a town in USA continental territory in the early 1900s. That doesnt look like what Al Capone did.

yellfromhell,

I have no problem with any of your comments except for the concept of Pancho. He was never leader of Mexico. His reign of influence lasted 8 years, from 1915 when the US backed Carranza as President of Mexico to 1923 when 7 gunmen riddled his car with bullets (sound like Capone?). Al Capone controlled several cities and Chicago was much larger than Columbus, New Mexico.

You must also put the time period into this. This was 1917, while Pancho raided a town for 4 1/2 hours (he and his "entire civilization of 500 bandits" attacked Columbus at 2:30am and were driven off by 7:00am) he never occupied it. In fact, he only did it in an attempt to get back at America (VERY similiar to Osama BinLaden) for not supporting him in his cause and hopefully cause the US to go to war with Mexico who he also had a grudge against. John Chisolm controlled almost half of New Mexico and his control lasted longer than 4 1/2 hours.

I can see Pancho as a civ and civ leader in an Old West scenario but that's it. I think anyone would be more qualified as Mexico's leader representation, Santa Anna, Maximillian, etc.

If you consider Pancho's actions an invasion, I could get 500 neighbors together, drive across the US-Canadian border and torch some town then hold off the local law enforcement for 4 1/2 hours and qualify as a civ!

[yellfromhell]

Ghengis,

Certainly you make my arguments look like joke. But realize I didnt say "Mexico invaded the US", but "Pancho Villa, a mexican, was the only man who...". Thats all. I dont think also that Pancho Villa should be the mexican civ leader. I put his name in the poll because I personally believe his name is better known for the anglo-saxons than Santa Anna (and if you look at a poll titled "nationalities" you`ll see that more than 50% of apolyton members that post in these threads are anglo-saxons).
About the 'invasion', well, formally it was one. I understand the point of your argument, but there`s no other word than 'invade' for what Pancho Villa did (no matter if it sounds ridiculous).
In the end, something very conected with a discussion thats been taken in another thread: ¿which leader would most of the mexicans prefare for their civ? They would probably say 'Pancho', but most likely say "Moctezuma". That would confirm in part that they are proud of their Aztec influences and that they are the rightfull heirs of the Aztec culture. ¿What do all of you think about that?

Hugs

Yellfromhell

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
Well, You probabily could do it, in a multi-player game, cause I'm a terrible player...
But... As a matter of fact, by the time the Brazilian Empire took the Rio Grande do Sul, you in Uruguay had the stronger schollarity in the continent, if I'm not wrong and confused with dates. Because this, I suppose, by the end of the independent period (Republica de Piratiny), Rio Grande became the state with the highest literacy level in Brazil. Anyway, I dont like so much of this part of the Brazilian history, I think our destiny is more pacefull. I'm a builder... BTW, we was in the same side once, in the Paraguay War, don't we? Imperialism is a contagious disease...
In the future, who knows, if Mercosur works after all, we could be under a single flag, maybe the 'Estados Unidos de la America del Sur'. What you thik about?
Answering your last post: what about Emiliano Zapata? He was a leader, too, and anglo-saxons knows him. They even made a movie, with Marlon Brando!

[Antxon]

As a spaniard with very strong ties with Portugal I want to suggest an 'Iberian civ'. That way we can join the history of both countries. At one time our two empires were ruled by the same kings.
I propose Viriato as our leader, as he is a hero for the full Iberian peninsula.
I will try this civ

[Aro]

Antxon,
Great idea. Viriato was a great leader, and was signifficant for boths countries. BTW, the Iberian peninsula history is full of great leaders. King D. Affonso Henriques, for exemple... and a legendary one: El Cid!
In XVIth century, the combined posessions of the two countries covered all the world!! Could be a civ with cultural bonuses: a lot of writers and painters (especially Velazques and Goya, I love them!!) and great naval research.
Yeah, I'd like to try this Civ, too.

[Jay Bee]

He he, I have been suggesting the merger all along, but our Portuguese friends did not seem to like the idea very much. Glad to see that there is some people who agree with me on this issue.

PS. Antxon, come visit us to the Spanish forum (middle page, under hosted sites). You too Yell & Aro, of course

[Estilpón]

vaya JB, tú por aquà (esto es civ3)

Me has ganado la partida. Mis pm's han sido posteriores

_____________________________________________


Fidel Castro is in the poll. why?????

[Aro]

I'm Brazilian, and my ancestors was jewish people who lived in Portugal, in the XVIth century. This's history, now... But I can see why our portuguese friends didn't like that idea very much, all over the centuries... Last year, I have been traveling over the frontier between Spain and Portugal. It's a fortified city after another, in both sides. Problems with the neighborhood? He he...

Ehm... I couldn't find the Spanish Forum... Where is it?

BTW, are someone thinking about a colonial mod or something? Whith Spain, Portugal, England, Holland and a lot of land to conquer? Over the XVth, XVIth and XVIIth centuries! Wow!

[Aro]

Estilpón,
I think Fidel is in the poll 'cause he is well-knowed by the people. Even they don't like him! I voted for San MartÃn, but Bolivar is a great name.
And Perón isn't in the poll, or Getúlio Vargas... Thanks God!

[Jay Bee]

Directions to the Spanish Site Forum: main forum page, scroll down til you see the Hosted Sites section. Click on the first one. There you are:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=123

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
I dont think also that Pancho Villa should be the mexican civ leader. I put his name in the poll because I personally believe his name is better known for the anglo-saxons than Santa Anna (and if you look at a poll titled "nationalities" you`ll see that more than 50% of apolyton members that post in these threads are anglo-saxons).

Are you kidding?? No one (anglo-saxon) has heard of Pancho Villa! They think of it as a Mexican Restaurant chain. Everyone's heard of Santa Anna, he sacked the Alamo. And most people have heard of Maximillian, though I don't think the Mexicans would want him as their symbolic leader.

Those are about the only three that had enough interaction with the US for Americans (okay, Norte Americanos) to have heard of them. But, seriously, I think it should be the leader who most defined and contributed to the Mexican Nationstate, regardless of whether anyone's heard of him.

[yellfromhell]

Ghengis,
Once again: I killed nobody. I may do a lot of mistakes, but that doesnt have to make you angry. ¡Its human!
Eventhough, what you say confuses me more: ¿Why does every united-statian I talk to just knows by sound the name 'Pancho Villa' and nothing about the two others? Maybe its just coincidence.
Second and last: Ghengis, you should know that no matter what options I put in the poll, there`s always someone that´s going to be "touched in his sensibility" by something I did. Well, I cant correct the poll now. Apolyton doesnt give the chance to do it.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Estilpon,
Aro was right in what he said about Fidel Castro, but I want to tell you something more:
If you read the first message of the thread, you`ll see I said 2 times that this has nothing to do with Good and Evil. Lets put those categorys a side and try to think in terms of the "influence" or "importance" the leaders have or had.
You know: the 20th century was a period of time in which lots of things happened, changes in every place, many discoveries, etc. I suppose we must over-estimate the 20th century in order to include the American civ in Civ3 (because otherwise they would be out - they are an extremelly young civ in a world with 6000 years of history). And, as you see, Firaxis estimated that way that century. So, Castro lived half of that century as Cubas leader, he`d been on top of the news all the time, he argues with the strongest country in the world, he did great things for Cuba and terrible things for Cuba. Those extremes make him very significant. I could have included the 'Che Guevara' instead, who had inspired many revolts in S.America, fought in Angola, inspired many french students to protests in that 60´s French May, etc. But, as I always say: you can vote with your own leaders if you like: just post your vote and I´ll daily post the partials results of the poll including it.
Hugs.
Yell

[yellfromhell]

An Iberian Civ...
If I was spanish or portuguese, I would prefare to have my own civ. Latinamerica´s case is different: first, no country by itself meets the standards to have its representant in such a way that nobody could argue about it. second: from the very beginning of our countrys, the goal was "independence from Europe and unity for the colonies". This didnt happen because of our "thirst of power", but that ideal is still alive.
I dont know much about what happened with the early iberian civs, but if you believe they had this ideal then an Iberian Civ in Civ4 could be fine.
BTW, thank you for the invitation to the Spanish forum. I`ll be there in a while.
Hugs,
Yellfromhell