Ibero-american civilizations

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
Your knowledge about history is very solid, and I agree, again, with yours arguments. And I had noticed this affair about Nixon, too. If I'm not wrong, this was part of the Condor Plan, a nightmare unifying the dictatorship in our continent, this come out recently in the news.
BTW, congratulations, we really need this thread. I'll post all ideas I may have about that.

[yellfromhell]

Sorry Venger for calling you 'Vanger' in all my past replies.
I`ll be honest. I knew I was missing a big dutch colony but I couldnt remember which. Now I do: Indonesia. ¡¡Thats a really, really big colony!! However, dutch influence in the colony was small. Just see: they are all muslims, they had no notorious cultural exchange, there are no cities with dutch names... Its clear for me that the dutch ussed their colonies as trade plataforms, points in the map from where they could reach more and more markets. Eventhough I recognize all this and its importance (Indonesia has hundreds of millons of people), I believe its still small compared with what Portugal did.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Yes Aro,
It was all part of the big Condor Plan. Something similar seems to be happening today: see the ephimerous falldown of Chaves government in Venezuela and what the US government said at that time. Remember Chaves is a friend of Castro. And see whats happening in your country: the "menace" that represents Lula for USA interest, and the consecuent FMI pressure and all that. We seem to still be the backyard of the world: we are always having trouble with problems we didnt create... just like in the cold war: we couldnt represent a menace to nobody, but no matter why we ended 'playin' in the Capitalist-Comunist World Game.
Sometimes I think we should care more about our real domestic problems than keep looking at the north as somekind of undeveloped admirors.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
I knew I was missing a big dutch colony but I couldnt remember which. Now I do: Indonesia. ¡¡Thats a really, really big colony!! However, dutch influence in the colony was small.

You are right, the Dutch used the colonies economically, they did not settle them very much, they typically just administered. Don't forget Surinaam was Dutch until recently. Maybe they could be barbarians in your south america mod.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
Fresno,
Your proposal also applies for USA?

Absolutely. I've started a thread about it once, which most posters here will remember because it stayed alive for a very long time. It wasn't a very popular thread though... Many American nationalists didn't like it.

Because the Germans were a Nation before their unification in 19th century, but I doubt they could be called a Civ. They did nothing all togher (I mean the little states that previous to the unification existed), and they function as a Civ only when they were attacked or when they attacked. (Im talking about the 2nd half of the past millenium. I know almost nothing about their history in the first half)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. It's true that the Germans unified very late, but their cultural importance in the centuries before their unification was already really huge. For me, that's the difference with all the colonial states which became independent since about 1800.

One more thing Fresno,
¿Dont you miss your Netherlands in Civ? I remember Holland being one of the four empires in Colonization game. I always played with them to enphasis trade.

I miss the Spanish and the Dutch. They both could be in.

Oh, and Marquis, about Indonesia: it's true we didn't colonize it in the same way as the Spanish colonized America; it was a trade colony rather than a settlement colony. It made the Dutch one of the richest peoples in Europe, while the Dutch West-India Compagny ("V.O.C") was by far the biggest trading compagny in the world. Because the Dutch were so rich, they could affort to buy high quality art (mostly paintings). That's why it also was culturally a golden age.

Because the Netherlands were relatively rich, and because we had much religious freedom, there were only few Dutch who wanted to settle in the colonies. That's the main reason why we haven't got many settlement colonies (apart from being a much smaller nation then other colonial powers... only Portugal is smaller).

So if you want us to be barbarians, please make us wealthier then any real civ

[yellfromhell]

quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq:
"You are right, the Dutch used the colonies economically, they did not settle them very much, they typically just administered. Don't forget Surinaam was Dutch until recently. Maybe they could be barbarians in your south america mod".

Marquis, Im not planning a mod. I mentioned Surinam in a past post as the "Dutch Guyana". Let me tell you something about that: I dont know why but neither the british, the dutch or the french gave any importance to the Guyanas, eventhough they where the only colonies they had in South America. At least the french still have theirs, and the french equivalent to Cape Cañaveral is there. The independent Guyanas never ever met with their neighbours (for what I know about): they seem to live in another continent. Just recently massive brazilean influence seem to affect them.
Hugs
Yell

[yellfromhell]

Fresno,

About the USA in an Europa Universalis like game:
What we should discuss is if Civ3 should be a realistic game or if, as most of the games, is intended to give wings to imagination.

About the Dutch: as I said, I will do no mod. But I really believe the dutch should be in the game. Do any of you watch 'Star-trek'. Well, I believe the Ferengis are inspired either on the Dutch or on the Jews (just talking about their trading abilities). Their could also be some similarities with the Fenitians.

About Holland or Portugal in the game:
I do believe richness is a point for Holland. But I believe colonialist influence is a point for Portugal. See: Portugal colonies in South-America had non-rich tribes. They had to look for the gold (the Spaniards, instead, just took it from the Incas or the Aztecs). Thats why they focused in expanding their territory. The Spaniards were so occupaid in taking gold that forgot to stop the Portuguese advance over the limits established by the Tordesillas treaty. I believe something similar happened to Holland: the focused all in trade. Is like in Civ3: one option is to build many, many cities to have lots of people, no matter the terrein quality. Another option is to build cities only in strategic points.

Hugs
Yell

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
In a certain way, Portugal acted like Holland. They used to build fortress in coast, and that fortresses had cannons in BOTH sides, the coastal side and the country side. The intention was settle down there and go to some commerce. In Africa and Asia, at least . Here, in Brazil, there was no much to trade... only to exploit. So, soon or later they had to advance to the continent. Maybe Portugal could be an expansionist and commercial Civ, and Holland a scientific and commercial one. After all, Holland received a lot of brains due their tollerance whit the fugitives of Inquisition. Hmmm... Industrious could be better than scientific... A lot of capital arrived with the fugitives And, about an Ibero-american Civ, what you think about militaristic and expansionist? Or militaristic and commercial? We can even think about a religious one, because the populace in LA IS actually very mistic and religious.

[Aro]

I was thinking... Portugal had the scool of Sagres, so could be scientific, instead commercial. Sagres was a respectable research center in the XIVth century, and later. Like NASA in the past century used to be...
And how about UU? The Gaucho seems very fine, and introduce a concept in game... A unit that don't kill, but un-fortify is very interesting. Holland could have some kind of refined swordsman, I don't know how to say this in english, an "espadachim", or even a naval unit. In any case, this unit need to be avaliable before frigates or musketmen. Maybe Marquis de Sodaq or Fresno could help. What do you think, guys?
And Portugal... I had some ideas, but I'll post later. I have a lot of work waiting for me.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Re: Ibero-american civilizations

Originally posted by yellfromhell
MEXICO: I believe they were in war with the US about 3 times. Once they owned Texas and California, doubling their actual territory size. They have the most populated city in the world - Mexico City -. A mexican - Pancho Villa - was the only man that invaded the continental territory of USA. Today they are the 8th economy in the world. I believe they should have less chances in becoming a formal Civ3 civ because they are somehow represented by the Aztecs.

Just a few clarifications on the Mexico entry. Pancho Villa isn't the only one to 'invade' the continental US. He was a bandit that robbed people and went across the Mexican border to avoid the forces that were trying to arrest him. You could just as easily say Al Capone invaded Canada cause he went across the border to pick up whiskey during Prohibition.

Secondly, Britain invaded the continental US in the war of 1812. They burned the US capital and marched on New Orleans.

I do hope someone makes a Colonial America Mod with all the great Colonial Powers.

However in the Portugal discussion: While Portugal had many more large and extensive holdings that the Dutch, these holdings all overshadowed Portugal herself. The Dutch were always the 'power' behind their colonies, for Portugal, the colonies were the power behind her.

[Aro]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I do hope someone makes a Colonial America Mod with all the great Colonial Powers.

That's a great idea! (Now, I can see a real lightbulb over your head... ). Trip is working on a scenario about the civil war in USA, but he or someone else could work on this, maybe with the same map as a start point. Could be a very interesting mod!

About Portugal and Holland: the dutch were here in Brazil, in Pernambuco by the XVIIth century, and after all they did an amazing job, developing culture and spreading tollerance... Both are interesting civilizations, little ones but very clever. In a ideal world, whith an ideal Firaxis, they would be in the game...

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

If no one makes a Colonial Mod by the time I get done with my other mods I'll make one. Just cause I'd like to have one that was sort of a free-for-all naval style.

[Aro]

I can't wait!

[yellfromhell]

GhengisFarb,
I agree with you in nearly everything.
I commited and error not saying "Pancho Villa was the only man IN ALL THE 20TH CENTURY that invaded USA continental territory". I appologize for that. About Pancho Villa being a bandit that robbed people, well, that can be discussed. If you consider legendary Robin Hood a bandit, well then Pancho Villa was a bandit. Anyway, if he was or not a bandit thats not the problem: in fact he did occupy a town in USA continental territory in the early 1900s. That doesnt look like what Al Capone did.

About the Dutch and Portugal, what you say its true, but: ¿Does the situation of the power changes anything of the importancec of the impire? Because in both cases the heads of the 'powers' was still in the european territory until the colonies got their independence.

Hugs

Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Aro,

If Ghengis Farb builds a mod and includes the 'Federal League' leaded by my great procer Artigas, I`ll be glad to crush you and recover Rio Grande do Sul :=)

Hugs

Yellfromhell