REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[Plan Austral]

Do the egyptians from the muslim period count as egyptians?

Maybe Saddat would be good for Egyp, if i recall correctly during the war of Yom Kipur he regained the suez canal and the sinai peninsula for egypt.
But i might be wrong, this is just what i think i remember.
Check it if you can.

[Kickasso]

To Kublai-Khan: I think muslim period is also important part of Egypt history - so we need at least one hero from that or modern period if any.

I found something about Zulu

1. Mpande
2. Zwelithini
3. Ntshingwayo
4. Dingane
5. Dabulamanzi
6. Prince Mbilini
7. Cetshwayo
8. ??? any more heroes?

the source is here http://www.kwazulu.co.uk/book.html

[Harovan]

Manstein3: Your post is absolutely correct, Manstein made a great strategies, he was a genius in Art of War. But we are talking about leaders. Rommel's soldiers loved their general, they would have died for him (and in many cases, they did). They wrote songs for him (e.g. the Africa corps song). Never hears something like that about Manstein. My old math teacher was in France and Africa with Rommel. He never said a good word about the Nazis or the other military leaders. But Rommel he treated with respect, calling him "our old general".

[Kickasso]

corrections:

1. Cetshwayo = old #1. Mpande
2. Zwelithini - not a warrior - now is a king of KwaZulu-Natal and seems still alive
3. Ntshingwayo
4. Dingane
5. Dabulamanzi
6. Prince Mbilini
7. 8. ??? any more heroes?

[Plan Austral]

I ve been talking with stefan haertel, (he is the guy who makes all those scenarios about persia, he knows a lot) and he told me that my list was appropriate, But he suggested me some changes.


1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Surenas : In 53 bc he defeated crassus at Carrhae.
5. Mithrades
6. Chosroes II
7. Sha Ismail
8. Megabazus

How do we decide the order of the leaders?


Here is the story,

Three men, known to us as the First Triumvirate, seized power from the Roman Senate. The oldest and richest of the triumvirs, Marcus Licinius Crassus, became governor of Syria in 55 B.C. Like his rivals, Pompey and Julius Caesar, Crassus wanted to become a conquering hero. He decided to do this, despite the protests of cooler heads in Rome, by conquering the Parthians. First he got the money to pay for his expedition, by going to Jerusalem and confiscating everything of value he could find in the Jewish Temple. When he approached the Euphrates late in 54 B.C., the new Parthian king, Orodes II, first protested that Crassus was breaking all the treaties signed between Parthia and Rome. Then he sent an ambassador, who asked whether Crassus was marching on orders from Rome (in which case they would oppose him without quarter), or if he was on some private mission (in which case they would pity him for his senility). Crassus replied that he would give his answer in Seleucia. The ambassador, perhaps mindful of the first emissary who took insults from Rome, held out his hand and exclaimed, "Hair, Crassus, will grow on my palm before you see Seleucia."
In the spring of 53 B.C., Crassus crossed the Euphrates with 40,000 men and entered northern Mesopotamia. This move surprised Orodes; most of his army was stationed in the north, because he thought Armenia was Crassus' true objective. The only force near enough to oppose Crassus was 10,000 cavalry, led by a Saka named Surenas. Instead of taking Seleucia, Crassus foolishly went after Surenas. Since the Romans were all on foot, wearing the typical heavy Roman armor and carrying swords and spears as weapons, they never caught up with the Parthian horsemen. It was the same situation Darius I had faced when he fought the Scythians in the sixth century B.C., but the Parthians were better archers than the Scythians, the Romans were slower than the Persians, and Crassus did not realize the need to withdraw until it was too late. We dignify the resulting massacre with the name "battle of Carrhae," after the town in the east Syrian desert (ancient Haran) where Crassus made his last stand. For two days the Parthians ran circles around the Romans, decimating them with an endless rain of arrows. 20,000 Romans were killed there, another 10,000 were captured and sold into slavery, and only one fourth of the Romans saw home again.
Crassus was killed at Carrhae, but the details are not clear. The most popular story is that the Parthians captured him alive, and they showed what they thought of his wealth by pouring molten gold down his throat! Crassus did earn for himself a place in history--as the worst general the ancient world had ever produced. It took a long time for Rome to get over the disaster at Carrhae.

[Harovan]

Oh, and by the way, about Manstein "sympathizing" with the fronde against Hitler: His words "Ein preussischer Feldmarschall meutert nicht" (A prussian field marshal doesn't mutiny) are legendary. He did not sympathize. He didn't even want to hear about it.

[Manstein3]

@SirRalph
Manstein sympathized nevertheless.
Another of his arguments against revolting was if he should turn around his armies and march to Berlin. He meant, the whole occupation of trying to win battles is doubtful if one begins to argue about political reasons. If a soldier starts to doubt the sensefulness of a war, he stops being soldier...


And the soldiers loved Manstein. He had a legendary name of winning almost lost situations and rescuing surrounded units, acchieving the almost impossible. In many cases he did.
When he took over the command of the Stalingrad rescue operation there was a popular saying at Stalingrad: 'Manstein holt uns raus.' (Manstein will get us out of here.)
He did not succeed though because of another Sovjet break through the lines, at the Italian Army's front which threatened to cut off the whole Caucasian troops, one Million men. Therefore the 300 000 Stalingrad men had to stay as long as possible and could not be rescued.

[Kickasso]

New persons in Zulu/Neighbours list:

Nehanda - not a warrior but Zimbabwean patriot
Nongalaza - defeated Dingane at the battle of Magongo Hills

Thus base list fo Zululand/Neighbours is:

1. Nehanda
2. Dingane
3. Cetshwayo 'Mpande'
4. Ntshingwayo
5. Nongalaza
6. Dabulamanzi
7. Prince Mbilini
8. is still a question...Help here!


Also final Persian Heroes List (big thanks to Kublai-Khan and his efforts)

1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Surenas : In 53 bc he defeated crassus at Carrhae.
5. Mithrades
6. Chosroes II
7. Sha Ismail
8. Megabazus

Japanese is next...gone sleep

[molly bloom]

For Egypt's list, I would include Hatshepsut- a ruler in her own right, who also by some accounts, led the Egyptian armies into battle, but who also increased Egypt's prestige and impressed upon neighbours the power of Egypt-

http://www.bediz.com/hatshep/story.html

and:

'QUEEN HATSHEPSUT (1500 B.C.)

About 1500 years before the birth of Christ, one finds the beginning of Hatshepsut's reign as one of the brightest in Egyptian history, proving that a woman can be a strong and effective ruler. She was according to Egyptologist, James Henry Breasted, "The first great woman in history of whom we are informed."

Her father, Thothmes I, was highly impressed with the efficiency of his daughter, and appointed her manager, and co-ruler of his kingdom.

Before the King died, he married Hatshepsut to her half-brother, Thothmes II. His reign lasted only thirteen years. After his death, Hatshepsut was to rule only in the name of Thothmes III, until he was old enough to rule alone.

Hatshepsut was not satisfied to rule in the name of Thothmes III.

Hatshepsut dressed herself in the most sacred of the Pharaoh's clothing, mounted the throne, and proclaimed herself Pharaoh of Egypt. She ruled Egypt for twenty-one years. She also moved to strengthen the position of Egypt within Africa by making peace with the tribes of Kush (or Nubia) and sending missions to the nations along the East African coast, as far south as Punt (present day Somalia). One of Hatshepsut's crowning achievements was sending a mission to a kingdom in Asia (now India). '

Her achievements financed and paved the way for the military triumphs of her successor, Thothmes III.

[molly bloom]

I would like to see one woman in in the Indian list, one frequently overlooked in 'official' histories-

http://www.innotts.co.uk/~allenc/lakshmibai/

she has a reputation as the Indian 'Jeanne d'Arc' for her heroism and skill in battle against the forces of the British Raj.

http://travel.indiamart.com/uttar-pradesh/jhansi/

' Sir Hugh Rose, the commander of the British force, wrote later, "The Rani was remarkable for her bravery, cleverness and perseverance; her generosity to her Subordinates was unbounded. These qualities, combined with her rank, rendered her the most dangerous of all the rebel leaders." '

http://www.sholay.com/personalities/jhansi.htm

[Dr. Nick]

Manstein, all German generals in Russia were outnumbered every time they fought. Russian army doctrine dictates that, and has dictated that for 100 years.

Also, ROMMEL! ROMMEL! ROMMEL! ROMMEL! Guderian invented tactics, so make a "Guderian War Academy" if you like, but when it comes to leaders, put ROMMEL!

English- I don't know, but I wouldn't put William the Conqueror in as a British hero, maybe as a French hero if at all. He invaded Britain and the Britons hated him. Instead, I'd pull him out and add Kitchener for his Egyptian and South African campaigns (yes, I know, Gallipolli) but he was one of the most admired generals of the Colonial War period and in Britain he was national hero.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by El Awrence


English- I don't know, but I wouldn't put William the Conqueror in as a British hero, maybe as a French hero if at all. He invaded Britain and the Britons hated him. Instead, I'd pull him out and add Kitchener for his Egyptian and South African campaigns (yes, I know, Gallipolli) but he was one of the most admired generals of the Colonial War period and in Britain he was national hero.

Yes, I'm with you on this one- William the B@stard isn't a national British/English hero- he did after all defeat the Anglo-Saxon king, Harald.... forever commemorated in that masterful bit of propaganda in the Bayeux Tapestry...

I'm also dubious about Vercingetorix as a French hero and Boudicca as an English hero- what will we do for the Celts ?

Kitchener seems a good replacement, given his iconic status on war recruitment posters, the African campaigns against the Mahdists and the Boers, and that tragic death at sea.... a real Boy's Own Adventure stiff upper lip figure....

[Rosacrux]

Kickasso

The list looks great, thank you for accepting my advice.

I'll look forward for the "complete item"

[Kickasso]

Now I think I can make my suggestion for Germany Heroes List:

1. Hermann the Cherusker
2. Karl Martell
3. Karl the Great
4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa'
5. Friedrich II the Great
6. Bluecher or Moltke - you vote please
7. Manstein
8. Rommel

I decided to exclude Guderian according to your comments, but I leave Manstein and Rommel to fit historical proportion. The "problem" of Germany is too many good generals...and I must leave some of them out.

For British (let's say for all Albion island nations)

William the Conqueror is not 100% approved so I think it's right (moreover his origin is Danish/Viking) - wipe him out OK?

Boudicea - she was in Civ2 and I think Celts have to be presented in Brithish Herous List (as well as Scots & Irish Heroes).

Kitchener - new person but I need more info about him to rank

To molly bloom: Thanks for interesting info. For Egypt I hope to find middle age muslim or modern hero, sorry for Hatshepsut - not so victorious as others - political and civil achievements are not accepted

Regarding Lakshmibai, Rani of Jhansi - she was a rebel but how victorious? If any excellent records appears - I'll put her on.

And finally for Vercingetorix - I suddenly realized that I have almost no info regarding him...if anybody have any info - please let me know

Oh, forgot about British Heroes Base List:
1. Boudicea
2. Alfred the Great
3. Kitchener
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward
6. George Monck
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery

Please help me with Zulu, Japanese and Iroquios...Thanks in advance

[Cossack]

I have been reading some of these names for the English, surely the majority of GL's should come from a CIV's golden age(s). For example my list for the English would be:

1. Alfred the Great
2. Edward I (Longshanks)
3. Henry V (Battles of Crecy and Agincourt against the French)
4. Nelson (Trafalgar)
5. Wellington (Waterloo)
6. Robert Clive (India)
7. James Wolfe (Canada)
8. Churchill (Second World War)

I have included some history for people who would like to be informed about the English heros Clive and Wolfe.

In some of the other lists I have seen William the Conqueror, Frobisher and Montgomery, and I have to disagree with these choices for the following reasons obviously William Conquered the Saxons the majority population at that time, I am sure that he wasn't envisioned as a hero by them, if William is in then Harold the Saxon leader at the time who William killed should be in for defeating Harald Hadrada's feared Viking army at the battle of Stamford Bridge.

With regards to Richard the Lionheart although a hero for his support and action during the Crusades, the crusades actually accomplished very little except providing some improvements in English castle design while his own kingdom suffered under the leadership of his brother John.

Frobisher was an explorer and Privateer as was Drake who was probably more of a hero at that time even though he was also mainly a privateer.

Churchill was Britain's greatest leader during the war, Montgomery although often a victorious general for the British in World War II, often waited until he outnumbered the enemy by more than 2:1 before attacking the enemy with overwhelming air and artillery support as well, his one real gamble was Operation Market Garden which was politically motivated (dislike and competition between Patton and Montgomery for supplies was intense) and although sound in plan was too hastily organized and failed to secure a bridge across the Rhine the main objective.

Cheers

The English Cossack

Robert Clive

The foundations of the British empire in India were, it is said, laid by Robert Clive, known to his admirers as the "conqueror of India". Clive first arrived in India in 1743 as a civil servant of the East India Company; he later transferred to the military service of the Company and returned to England in 1753, where he able to follow a comfortable life-style. But his penchant for extravagance and ostentatious displays of wealth, just as much as his electoral loss in his attempt to gain a seat in the House of Commons, opened him to the attacks of his creditors and political opponents. Meanwhile, in Bengal, where the British and the French were contesting for supremacy, the Company required the services of an able commander. Clive was eager to return to India; and soon the summons came. He arrived in India in 1756 and at once secured the British forces in Madras. He then moved to Calcutta, which had been captured by the Nawab of Bengal, Siraj-ud-daulah, and early in 1757 he recaptured Bengal. Later that year, on June 23rd, he defeated the Nawab at the so-called "Battle of Plassey".

James Wolfe

Major General James Wolfe, a 32-year-old career soldier and something of a prodigy was chosen to lead the attack on Quebec. Although the son of a general of marines and appointed an ensign at 14 years of age, he earned his later promotions to captain at 17 and major at 22 by intense dedication to duty, bravery in battle and remarkable military competence for his age.
Between 1749 and 1757 as lieutenant colonel of the 12th Foot, he trained and drilled his regiment so well, it became a model for the army.
They promoted him major general in command of the expedition to take Quebec in 1759. For months the army campaign was frustrated by the French General Montcalm’s successful exploration of the natural defenses of Quebec with its huge dominating cliffs. Although the city was ruthlessly shelled, the initial attacks failed, and Wolfe became sick, perhaps partly through the stress of command at such an early age.
He challenged his three capable but somewhat insubordinate brigadiers to come up with a winning plan, and they suggested an attack from the river above the city up a path known as the Anse du Foulon" or the Fullers’ Path.
To succeed, the attacking force had to navigate to the right place up the river in the dark, surprise and silence the sentries, get thousands of men and several guns up a narrow path up a steep cliff, then get into formation and fight a battle against the French forces on the open ground at the cliff top.
No doubt swallowing hard but with great confidence in his troops, Wolfe approved the plan. The joint operation succeeded brilliantly. In the set piece battle that developed on Sept. 13 on the Plains of Abraham in front of Quebec, the French regulars broke and ran after a devastating volley from the British infantry. Wolfe was killed in the action and became an instant hero. His French counterpart, Montcalm, was also fatally wounded and died soon after.
The battle of Quebec proved a turning point. Amherst went on to take Montreal in the following year, and French power in North America was broken forever.