REAL HEROES NAMES for each civ (please participate in this project)

[Kickasso]

Dear Players.

I decided to post this message because of weak historical knowledge of Firaxis guys. It's a pity when I see an excellent idea spotted with inks of history ignorance. I think it could be helpful for us both to release Apolyton civ3 pack with real names of each civ heroes as well as for Firaxis and probably it's civ4... Also I just asking your help and knowledge to complete my own mod where only REAL HEROES NAMES will present for each civ.

That was an overture - now only necessary info

Idea: Heroes are not mostly "branded" people from each nation (such as Anna Kurnikova as an example of Russian hero - Hey Sid! Why not btw ). They also not a rulers or dictators who didn't have any military records (such as Lenin in Russia).
They are either Warlords Kings of Ancient times or Victorious Generals - in accordance to the rules of Civ3 they command army (not capital or village). I think we need no more than 8 heroes for each civ.

Real Heroes for Russians (chronological order):

1. Svyatoslav (King of Ancient Rus' who once seized and captured Constantinopol of Byzantium in VII century)

2. Alexander Nevsky (Prince of Novgorod who defeated Swedish expedition on Neva river and crushed Teutonic Crusaders on Chudskoe lake in legendary "Ice Carnage" in XII century. Canonized as a Saint)

3. Dmitry Donskoy (Prince of Moscow who defeated Mongols after 300 years occupation and begun liberation of Rus' in XIV century)

4. Ivan The Terrible (Grozny) (King of Russia who seized and captured two Tatarian cities on Volga river - Kazan and Astrakhan in XVII century, and open Siberian exploration period for Russia)

5. Peter The Great (First Imperor of Russian who defeated Swedish invasion in "Poltava battle" and won several sea battles in Baltic sea in addition to their well known achievements for Russia in XVIII century)

6. Alexander Suvorov (Most victorious Russian commander - first Field-Marshal in Russia. Author of "Science of Victory" book - Russian analogue of Sin Tzu's treatise. Won several battles against Osmanian Imperia and lead Italian Liberated expedition against France in XVIII century)

7. Mikhail Kutuzov (Disciple of Suvorov, Kutuzov as a General have one very impressive record - "Borodino battle" against Napoleon and as the final of that war liberation of Paris in XIX century)

8. George Zhukov (Russian General in IIWW who organized Moscow defence, commanded in Stalingrad operation and captured Berlin in XX century)

That's it. Please mark that I didn't include in the list Stalin, Lenin and famous Naval commanders (such as Nakhimov and Ushakov who also canonized as a Saint) due to 8 most victorious person cap.

Please do the same for all other civs (are there any Ancient Greeks or Egyptians here?
)

I've seen the same heroes info about China (from IamChinese folk here on forum) and probably from someone else. I fully understand hard work needed to find Persian, Iroqious, Aztecs and Egyptian heroes but if anybody could help here - that would be great!!!

Thanks in advance and I hope Apolyton and Firaxis teams find it very helpful to apply in future mods/civs/games.

[Pfanner]

For Germany:

Karl Martell(totally underrated) He stoped the invasion of the Arabs in 700

Friedrich II. (the great) Prussian King 1740.

Erwin Rommel (WW2) War in Africa

Guderian or Manstein 2 generals in ww2(but u wouldn't say heros)

Karl the Great, the first German Kaiser at 800

Some Siencetist or great Artist:

Johann Wofgang Goethe, Friedrich Schiller, Einstein, ludwig van Beethoven, Wehner von Braun, Oppenheimer , etc

[Manstein3]

well, for Germany, if only warriors to be named:

- 7 p.CHR. Arminius, or Hermann the Cherusker, who destroyed three Roman Legions in the Battle of the 'Teutoburger Forest'. The Romans gave up all land east of the Rhine because of that and never came over the loss of their legions.

- ~800 Karl the Great, or Charlemagne, as the French call him. (At that time, France and Germany were united in Karls Franconian Empire. France is named after it, as well as Franken, a German province.
Karl conquered Saxon, Friesen, a part of Spain, the kingdom of the German tribe Langobarden in the later Lombardy (in Northern Italy). The Pope declared him follower of the Roman Caesars, he made a peace treaty with Konstantinople, ...

- ~1200 Friedrich I 'Barbarossa', lived in Sicily, conquered and owned an Empire between the Northern Sea and Sicily

- Friedrich II the Great ~ 1770 made the Prussian army the best in the World, fought a successful war (though much luck) allied to Britain against Russia, Austria, France, who were twenty times superior in numbers.

- 1810 Gneisenau, first who was equal to Napoleon in strategic mastership

- 1940 Guderian: Creator of the tank weapon as a decisive strategic tool (maybe his luck was being the first one of an elite club of generals going to war: de Gaulle had the same ideas in France, but could not get over First-World-War-concepts of the French Marshalls, Zhukov had same ideas, but the Sovjet army also used tanks as tactical, not strategical weapon, Patton had the same ideas, but was sitting on his back somewhere in Arizona waitin to be needed...)

- Manstein 1940: great strategist, made the plan of the France-Offensive and several masterly handled battles in Russia against a 10 times superior enemy.

[Kickasso]

Thanks for German heroes info

So I put all mentioned German heroes in the following chronological order (8 heroes limit):

1. Hermann the Cherusker - VII BC century
2. Karl Martell - VIII century

3. Karl the Great - IX century - BUT I'M NOT ACTUALLY SURE IF HE BELONGS TO GERMANY OR TO FRANCE - AS I KNOW KARL WAS FROM GERMAN TRIBES AND LATER BECAME A FOUNDER OF FRANKS KINGDOM - FRANCE FIRST KING BUT HE GAIN THE GLORY AS A GERMAN WARLORD... Am'I right or wrong here?

4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa' - XIV century
5. Friedrich II the Great - XVIII century
6. Gneisenau - XIX century - I completely agree to include him into the list - that was a time of great battles across the Europe
7. Manstein - XX century - Also agree. Russians had many problems with his tactical ideas during WW2
8. Rommel OR Guderian - I can't distinguish who's more victorious or famous of them? Please you select who will be nominated on last position.

Thank you all for your great efforts and interesting info (I didn't know about Martell (only tasted same name cognac ) but heard something about Arminius.

Any info about British, France, Roman Warlords?

[Manstein3]

about Karl Martell and Karl the Great: I agree in the important role of the first. I hesitated though to put him on a list of German warriors because despite of the fact that he was of Franconian, Germanic blood, the centre of his kingdom lay in the later France:in Reims, Soissons, Paris, Orleans and Tours.
He somehow created the split between France and Germany because he gave the West ('France': Neustrien, Burgund, Provence) to his son Pippin, and the East ('Germany`: Austrien, Schwaben, Thüringen) to his son Karlmann. Bavaria and Aquitania they shared, Saxon they conquered...
Karlmann resigned later. Pippins son Karl the Great had the united kingdom again. But now the centre was far more east, at the Rhine, in Aachen, Trier, Köln, Mainz. Therefore he is with better arguments to be named a German than a French king. The definite split cam after Karls death: a West-Franconian kingdom was declared and an east-Franconian kingdom...

Rommel was a great tactical troop commander with individual bravery.
Guderian was almost the same bold panzer-Raider, but he had the idea of panzer-Raids. so somehow he's superior, I think.

France had Vercingetorix, a brave, but unsuccessful leader against the Roman conquerors. They have Karl Martell and Charlemagne. (some of them may claim them, I think).
Cardinal Richelieu, quite unique, was a (un)famous diplomat and got provinces without battles, for example paid the Swedish to wage war (30 years war) against the German Kaiser, then got the land west of the Rhine easily because of the weakness of the Holy Roman Empire, vulgo Germany.
Napoleon.
Well, after that, the French weren't so lucky in battles...
de Gaulle

The British: Albin, who defeatet the Danish-Viking invasion around 500, I think. William the Conqueror, a Viking who finally succeeded... at 1066.
1588 Admiral Francis Drake defeated teh spanish Armada: Beginn of British naval power and Empire, beginning of the end of Spanish Empire...
Cromwell, who defeatet the Scots 1648, but was generally a civil war hero.
1805 Admiral Nelson (at Trafalgar) defeats Napoleons Navy, prevents an invasion of England.
1815 Wellington (along with the Prussian Generals Gneisenau and Blücher) defeats Napoleon at Waterloo.
The British Generals of the First World War are all infamous because of their habit to expose thousands and thousands of pathetic infantry men without shelter the machin guns of the enemy. No military genius in the First World War, on no side of the trenches...

Second World War. Despite Montgomery and the fact that Churchill was never leader in command I would vote for him, because of his crucial decisions to spare the British fighters, not use them in the Battle of France and the German Bombing Offensive. This prevented the invasion of Britain!

Romans?
Caesar, who conquered Gallia and was a genius in warfare and a charismatic leader.
many many others. difficult to decide who s most important

have to think about it...

[Manstein3]

Arminius' 'victory in the Teutoburger Forest was 7 post Christum, in the year seven after Christs birth, not in the VII. century BC

[Harovan]

For Germany:

I would suggest not to take Hitler's generals. They may have made good strategies like Manstein, Panzer tactics like Guderian or simply be a good military leader like Rommel (even the British respected him), but somehow it's not right though.

I would replace them with Scharnhorst, Blücher and/or Lützow, who were also great military leaders in the war against Napoleon. Or what about Moltke?

[molly bloom]

Great British/English heroes?

As reflects the U.U., a naval list should come first- starting with Alfred the Great. Then we could skip forward to Elizabethan times, and Sir Francis Drake, Lord Howard of Effingham, Martin Frobisher and John Hawkins.

Then the Parliamentary/Restoration forces, with George Monck, Duke of Albemarle, Admiral Robert Blake, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, and Admiral Sir William Penn.

As for WWI commanders, I do think T.E. Lawrence deserves at least a mention for the daring attack on Aqaba, and for inspiring the revolt in the Hejaz. Similarly, Field Marshal Sir Edmund Allenby, for his campaign against the Ottomans in the Middle East.

Field Marshal Slim and Major-General Orde Wingate are also notable for the Burmese/Indian campaigns in WWII.

[Kickasso]

Thank you all for necessary comments. So I think finalized German Heroes List will be the following:

1. Hermann the Cherusker - I century (thank to Manstein3 for mark)
2. Karl Martell - VIII century
3. Karl the Great - IX century (I think it's correct to consider him German Hero)
4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa' - XIV century
5. Friedrich II the Great - XVIII century
6. Gneisenau - XIX century
7. Manstein - XX century (I really think what military leaders always out of political states)
8. Guderian - XX century (beat Rommel in competition for last nomination)

Special thanks to Sir Ralph for comments and new names. I don't know anything about Moltke - what special about him?


For France (remember I don't consider leaders without strong military records such as Richelieu or Mazarini - they are political folks)

1. Vercingetorix -
2. Charlemagne -
3. any Joan d'Arc's times leaders ??? if anybody know
4. Napoleon
5. De Gaulle
6 Any more?...I can't believe France have only 4 heroes for it's history. What about America's exploration period, Chivalry period and Valua dynasty?



For British (it's difficult situation due to my idea of excluding naval commanders - in Civ3 only ground armies have leader (btw does anybody seen naval leader appearance in civ3). But British history has many naval heroes such as Drake, Nelson... What I suggest to do is to try to collect ground generals first and add naval admirals then.

1. Albin - VI century
2. William the Conqueror - XI century
3. Richard "Lion Heart" - First crusade's hero
4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace (if I spell it right) - Scottish Hero with some valuable military records (remember I'm out of politic)
7. George Monck - also more military records needed
8. Wellington - agree

Comment: Despite Churchill's important role in WW2 I don't think he could be nominated (as Stalin). He is neither victorious general nor warlord...sorry...he probably could be nominated as a Civ Leader replacing Elizabeth in next Civ4

Special thanks to molly bloom for interesting names and records


For Romans (Caesar's role is to be a Civ Leader):
1. Trajan
2. Claudius
3. Anthony
4. Octavian
5. Diocletian
6.7.8...
any more? (I think I need to find Ancient History Schoolbook)

Japan, India and China - where are you? I almost don't know about you...

Kickasso

[Harovan]

Why do you thank me for suggestions, if you completely ignore them?

About Moltke: Helmuth Graf von Moltke was the Chief of the Prussian (later German) General Staff (a Prussian invention) in 1858-1888, in a time where Germany was very successful in European wars, especially against Austria and France. He also was a good theoretic of warfare.

EDIT about British: How can you dare to forget about field marshal Bernhard Law Montgomery? He was the born military leader. See http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/docs/monty.htm . It would be a sin not to take him. Churchill is, of course, out of question.

[Kickasso]

To Sir Ralph

Heh, you're right about Monty (now I can't ignore you anymore) - my fault

So corrected British list is:

1. Albin - VI century
2. William the Conqueror - XI century
3. Richard "Lion Heart" - XIII century
4. other crusade period heroes if be mentioned (Howard of Effingham or someone else)
5. Martin Frobisher - but I would like to hear more about his records
6. William Wallace - XIV century
7. Wellington - XIX century
8. Montgomery - XX century

I quite accept that #4 & 5 could be replaced with Drake & Nelson if any guarantee of Naval Army creation in Civ3

Wow! 3 civs almost completed...not bad

Thanks

[Harovan]

Good! What a relief

Also note, that the German hero "Karl the Great" and the French "Charlemagne" are the same, so make sure they don't appear for both nations.

EDIT: Did I really post "they"? I meant "he", as it's the same person.

[Kickasso]

Right Ralph! I missed that about Charlemagne.

Corrected France Heroes List (few heroes)

1. Vercingetorix -
2. ??? -
3. any Joan d'Arc's times leaders ??? if anybody know
4. Napoleon
5. De Gaulle
6 Any more?...I can't believe France have only 4 heroes for it's history. What about America's exploration period, Chivalry period and Valua dynasty?

Kickasso

[hetairoi22]

Roman - Scipio Africanus. Won famous victory versus the Carthaginian leader Hannibal in the battle of Zama (202 BC) and thus ended the Second Punic War.

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Roman - Laelius, Gaius "d. after 160, BC
Roman general and politician who contributed to Roman victory during the Second Punic War (218-201) between Rome and Carthage.

Owing his political advancement to his friend, the renowned commander Scipio Africanus, Laelius accompanied Scipio on his Spanish campaign (210-206). While in Africa with Scipio from 204 to 202, Laelius defeated the Numidian prince Syphax, an ally of the Carthaginians, and commanded the cavalry in Scipio's decisive victory over Hannibal at Zama (now in Tunisia; 202). After the war Laelius advanced from aedile (197) to praetor (196) to consul (190). In 160 he met Polybius and supplied the historian with a great deal of information about the life of Scipio Africanus.

quote from "Encyclopedia Britannica".
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Roman - Corbulo, Gnaeus Domitius Roman general who restored Roman control over Armenia in 47 AD.
---------------------------

Roman - Arbogast "d. Sept. 8, 394
barbarian general of the Roman Empire, the first to establish a Roman nominee of his own as a puppet emperor.


Probably of Frankish descent, he rose to the rank of magister equitum ("master of the cavalry") in the Western Roman army and was sent by the emperor Gratian, in 380, to assist the Eastern ruler Theodosius against the Goths in Thrace. He remained in the service of Theodosius. In 388, after the defeat in Italy of the usurper Magnus Maximus by Theodosius, Arbogast recovered Gaul for the Western emperor Valentinian II from Maximus' son, Flavius Victor. The following year Arbogast pacified the Rhine frontier, imposing a treaty on the Frankish leaders Marcomer and Sunne, who had invaded Gaul in 384.


By 391 the general had become all-powerful in Gaul as comes ("count") and regent. When Valentinian attempted to dismiss him, Arbogast declared that only Theodosius possessed the power to do so. On May 15, 392, Valentinian died at Vienna (modern Vienne, Fr.) in circumstances suggestive of murder instigated by Arbogast. Proclaiming Eugenius, a professor of rhetoric, as emperor in the West, Arbogast--who admired the Roman Republic and despised the quarrels between Roman Catholic and Arian Christians--set about restoring paganism. In the winter of 393-394, he conducted a successful campaign against the Ripuarian Franks, the Chamavi, and along the Rhine, but the following May, Theodosius marched west to suppress the pagan revolution. A two-day battle ended in victory for Theodosius. Eugenius was beheaded; Arbogast committed suicide. " -quote from "Encuclopedia Britannica"

SOme Ideas for Roman generals.

[Kickasso]

Thanks, hetairoi22 for detailed review of Roman war history

Updated Roman Heroes List is the following now:

1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Gaius Laelius
8. Arbogast

I have some doubts about #4 & 6...If more famous or victorious candidates appear I think I could replace them