Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

[Wernazuma III]

Thanks Solomyr, aztec afterlife beliefs took my time in the past few days...

I'll change Moses and Golda in the leader list.
I don't agree however about changing Israel to Judah. Although our extra pack Hebrews are more "ancient" hebrews than modern Israeli, IMHO that Israel is more popular and "Israel" is more representative to ancient as well as modern hebrews

About the Macabee UU: Neither "Zealots" nor "Macabee" were actual "Units". Zealot as a synonym for religion crazed fundamentalists is probably no good choice (though it's still in the list) and the Macabee were an aristocratic family but no unit. It's like adding the "Sassanid" as a persian UU. Does anyone maybe know how they called their soldiers or unit, that would be a great help.

[Bad Ax]

Originally posted by NotLikeTea
While a good merchent ship is certainly fitting the civ, recall that a golden age doesn't start untill a UU wins a battle.

This is just false. The Golden Age *can* begin when the UU wins a battle, but I have actually never experienced such an entrance. I almost always get a golden age from building an appropriate combination of Wonders. Read the Civilopedia.

[Fresno]

Wernazuma III:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Fresno: Changed the Meppel/Hoggeveen thing. I want to keep up the title king, because "Stadtholder" seems to be too diminutive. It's like calling the american leader "governor" or "viceroy", after all stadtholder was the title under spanish rule, wasn't it?

Thank you for changing the city list.

The title of stadtholder wasn't the title under the Spanish rule: the stadtholders ruled the Netherlands from about 1500 till 1800. In this time the Netherlands were independent again.

Under Spanish rule, however, the Netherlands were ruled by the king of Spain, who appointed a viceroy (which isn't the same as 'stadtholder.' In Dutch, the word for 'viceroy' is 'landvoogd').

The title of king is actually more diminutive for the Dutch, since it were England, France and Austria who decided the Netherlands should become a monarchy, without consulting the Dutch people.

So I think the title of stadtholder would be historically more accurate.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Fresno

The title of stadtholder wasn't the title under the Spanish rule: the stadtholders ruled the Netherlands from about 1500 till 1800. In this time the Netherlands were independent again.

Under Spanish rule, however, the Netherlands were ruled by the king of Spain, who appointed a viceroy (which isn't the same as 'stadtholder.' In Dutch, the word for 'viceroy' is 'landvoogd').

The title of king is actually more diminutive for the Dutch, since it were England, France and Austria who decided the Netherlands should become a monarchy, without consulting the Dutch people.

So I think the title of stadtholder would be historically more accurate.

Thanks Fresno, I didn't know that! In this case I'll change the title to Stadtholder, it adds more uniqueness AND is more accurate, so it's a good choice.

[cam hardy]

Your list looks good, though personally I think the Hebrew civ should be Religious...

[Harel]

More cities name for the Israelies:

Arad
Ramat Hasharon
Herziliya
Ra'anana
Kfar-Sava
Rishon-Lezion
Naharia
Petah-Tikva

[Eli]

Kfar-Saba

[Harel]

Actually, I am preety sure the proper translation to English (at list, what appears on the map) is Kfar-Sava.

[Natan]

My Israeli map says Kfar Sava, and that would also be consistent with what we're doing with other city names - Beer Sheva and not Beer Sheba.

[Gholam]

Well, I can tell you that it's pronounced Be'er Sheva - not Be'er Sheba - and Kfar Saba, not Kfar Sava.

Edit: the confusion comes from the fact that in hebrew, B and V are one letter (formally, a dot in the middle of it means Bet, and lack of dot means Vet, but that dot is almost never used).

[Mokael]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
About the Macabee UU: Neither "Zealots" nor "Macabee" were actual "Units". Zealot as a synonym for religion crazed fundamentalists is probably no good choice (though it's still in the list) and the Macabee were an aristocratic family but no unit. It's like adding the "Sassanid" as a persian UU. Does anyone maybe know how they called their soldiers or unit, that would be a great help.

well, we can always use the "Merkava", and I don't mean a chariot, I'm talking about the tank ...

And yes, how come Hebrews (Israelis, or whatever name will be used) are not Religious? I say it should be Religious and Expansionist

[Solomyr]

Expansionist? I disagree. There were periods of expansion in Jewish history, especially during King David’s time, but for the most part, they only wanted their little sliver of land at the east end of the Med. I think religious is important, but C/I aren't a travesty. Expansionist is.

And Wernazuma III, I disagree with you on the UU still. The Maccabees we not a family, despite with Jewish tradition teaches. Mattathias and his sons were part of the Hasmonean house. They lead the revolt against the Assyrian Greeks, and they and their forces become known as the Maccabees. Either from the Hebrew work for 'hammer' or an acronym for a war cry invoking the name of God. So I still say Maccabee...besides, it doesn't look like we have any better ideas

Again, I cite Dimont's "Jews, God and Histroy"

[Eli]

I dont know about the UU Solomyr, but concerning the expansionist issue... Can you compare the expansion of David to the expansion of the Brits for example? So David conquered some lands here and there, but giving an expansionist trait is overexaggeration IMO.

[Wernazuma III]

About the CSA: It came in by accident. As I've mentioned somewhere in this thread, I decided to discuss them seperately. Commercial/Industrious is how I found the CSA on locutus' homepage. I agree though that religious is a good option. We'll discuss this in part 5. For now, I've deleted the CSA from the first post.

[aschatz]

Hi. Haven't posted here much but as someone who would like to see a "Hebrews" civilization, I'll add my two cents.

First of all, I think religious/scientific or religious/commercial is the correct mix. The Hebrews/Jews never expanded to the extent of most other civilizations.

Nobody seems to have brought up the idea that the Hebrews/Jews unit should be a modern one. But, with the exception of the reign of David (quite short), the Jews have never been warriors until post-1947. I think that some sort of fighter, bomber, or tank makes the most sense. Something with high defense, since the ability to defend a small sliver of land stands out the most in recent times.

Wouldn't democracy be the preferred government? While they were a monarchy 2000 years ago, throughout the exile the Jews subsisted thanks to representative decision making bodies such as the Sanhedrin. Today they are the only democracy in a region of monarchies and despotisms. Plus, democracy means more commerce, less war, which while some might disagree (since 1967), seems to be in the Jews nature historically.

Also, the idea of Golda Meir as a military leader is a bit silly.

Aaron