Announcement

**Dr. Nick** · December 6, 2001, 23:31

Portugal... UU, Woad Warrior?

**Stefu** · December 7, 2001, 03:58

Mmm, how 'bout Merchantman for Dutch? I mean, as a reminder of Colonization...

**Wernazuma III** · December 7, 2001, 04:47

Originally posted by El Awrence
Portugal... UU, Woad Warrior?

Oops, copied and forgot to replace

**Wernazuma III** · December 7, 2001, 04:52

stefu: I'm still not sure. I could also think of an rifleman unit with an extra defence. AFAIK, the dutch were the first ones who mastered the drill.

**Remy** · December 7, 2001, 09:43

Here are some changes I would like to see for the Dutch:

- Name of the Ruler should be the original name Willem van Oranje instead of the translated name 'Orange'

- Leaders: Piet Hein, Michiel de Ruyter, Maarten Tromp, Witte de With, Jan van Speyk (who were all famous admirals during the Golden Age of the Netherlands around 1600), Johan van Oldenbarnevelt (one of the great political leaders during the golden age)

- Government: I don't think Republic should be the favorable government, more likely either Monarchy (with King Willem van Oranje) or Democracy. Shunned government should probably be communism.

- Civilization abilities: Expansionist / Commercial.

- Unique Unit: I'm not sure either, during the golden age the Dutch were famous for their warfare at sea and trading all over the world with the great ships from famous compagnies like the VOC.
So I vote for VOC Ship as replacement of the Galleon, attack 1, defense 3, movement 5, carry 5 units. (Galleon has 1,2,4,4 respectively)

- Cities: the list looks rather complete, I would change The Hague to Den Haag and Hertogenbosch to Den Bosch.

Furthermore, thank you all for all the great work done already.

Remy.

**Gholam** · December 7, 2001, 10:38

Correction on Hebrews city names: there is no Ramat, and no Gan, there's Ramat-Gan

And I still think UU should be a 3.2.1 settler.

**Wernazuma III** · December 7, 2001, 13:48

Gholam: I knew that

; And I don't think an armored settler would be good. Settlers should be always object of possible capture. With an armored settler, the Hebrews would expand way to easily and too fast (Well, in your history you did expand fast, but mostly not willingly [sorry!!

])

Remy: I'll keep english names, sorry. We've done this with all civs because we use it as lingua franca. Believe me, if it were for me, we'd have Lisboa, Den Haag, Athinai etc. etc.
I changed the gov. preferences and UU

**Dr. Nick** · December 7, 2001, 14:49

Let's see, the Portuguese were a seafaring civ during their golden age. But based on exploration. How about a nao? They were improved caravels, maybe give them extra movement to represent the explorational abilities of the portuguese.

**Va-Toran** · December 7, 2001, 19:51

A few points:

I would replace 'The Hague' with Den Haag, regardless of consistency, just to create the right atmosphere. The Hague sounds far too english, Hertogenbosch at least sounds dutch.

The Portugeuse Leader is generally called 'Henry the Navigator' not 'Henry the Seafarer'.

**Wernazuma III** · December 7, 2001, 21:09

I'll change "the Seafarer" to "the Navigator", it was due to analogy thinking from german ("der Seefahrer")

El awrence: Great idea, I'll add the Nao

**molly bloom** · December 7, 2001, 21:57

No, not woad warrior. Really, too cheesey.

The chariot:

https://www.llyn-cerrig-bach.co.uk/chariot.htm

'From the second half of the 3 century B.C. to the 1 century B.C. a high quality Celtic glass industry emerged - this producing the best quality products of its time. Celtic military tactics also evolved. From the middle of the third century B.C. the chariot was of decreasing importance being gradually displaced by cavalry. This required a fundamental change in the method of warfare. One consequence was an increase in the length of the sword - this being extended from around 600 -700 mm in 250 A.D. to 800 - 900 mm by around 200 A.D. '

and :

Page not found – The Kingdom of Meridies, SCA Inc

https://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Equestrian/1004.html

Page not found - The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

https://www.unc.edu/~bottaro/intropage.html

https://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/garton.htm

Shunned government? Could only be communism, given the individualism inherent in Celtic cultures.....

**Wernazuma III** · December 7, 2001, 23:17

molly: I don't even have a clue, what a woad warrior is... I got this from locutus' homepage!
I don't think however we should make the chariot the celtic UU, it was a commonly used tool from china to the atlantic shores and only assyrian and egyptian chariots got some fame. Maybe a rider unit could do. The romans formed their cavalry from 140BC onwards with celtic riders (until they got better germanic riders

)

**molly bloom** · December 7, 2001, 23:43

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
molly: I don't even have a clue, what a woad warrior is... I got this from locutus' homepage!
I don't think however we should make the chariot the celtic UU, it was a commonly used tool from china to the atlantic shores and only assyrian and egyptian chariots got some fame. Maybe a rider unit could do. The romans formed their cavalry from 140BC onwards with celtic riders (until they got better germanic riders

)

Didn't mean to imply woad warrior was yr. invention- apologies.

As for the unique unit- well, both the Chinese and the Iroquois (anachronistically) have mounted units, so if the Egyptians and the Celts both have chariots, I can't see there being a great difference in that. For me, the defining weapon of war for the Celts is the war chariot, and it is of great significance in the burial sites of the Iron Age Celtic aristocracy, and in terms of Celtic artistic expression and craftwork.

'Wilkens continue: In the meantime, I have sometimes had to work back from elements known about the Celts in the Roman era'. In part III in his book, he returns to Galatea, who turns out to be a major key for the research as she will be proof that the Celts were already around in the Bronze Age - much earlier than assumed hitherto. The dynamic and inventive Celtic culture brought a certain civilization to Europe before the Greeks and the Romans. They were the first to construct harvesting implements and war chariots. They invented tools still used today, such as pincers; they had keys; they forged iron rims for their chariot wheels; they produced coats of mail. They shod their horses. These shoes, at first in bronze, were not nailed, but had rings round the edge through which a thong was passed to tie them in place. This explains the use of such expressions as horses 'with flashing feet' or 'single-hooved horses' in Homer.'

celt.net/Celtic/celtopedia/c.html

So as you can see, for me the element that best describes early Celtic success and expansion is the war chariot. With a female warrior or driver, and a spear thrower, and dependent on iron and horses, it should be distinctive enough?

**Eli** · December 8, 2001, 04:58

Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Hebrews
Names: Israel, the Hebrews, Hebrew
Ruler/Title: David /King
Leaders: Solomon, Joshua, Saul, Juda Maccabaeus, Herzl, Ben Gurion, Meir, Rabin I dont think Meir should be a leader... She was nothing special
CSA: Commercial, Industrious
UU: Zealot (?/?/?) replaces Spearman?/Swordsman?
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Monarchy
Cities:
Jerusalem
Tel Aviv
Be'er Sheva
Haifa
Shechem - Shchem
Hebron
Joppa -Joppa? Jaffa
Jericho
Betlehem
Nasaret
Mizpah
Gibeah ??? What is this place?
Ezion-Geber ??? What is this place?
Ramat-Gan
Netanya
Eilat
Sena ??? What is this place?
Ashdod

Tvzat - Tzfat
Tiberias
Shilo
Giliead
Masada
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yafo - Yafo and Joppa()/Jaffa is the same place
Yavneh
Eliat - already mentioned as Eilat

Announcement

Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

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