Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3)

[Eli]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
I am not trying to open a vendetta with Israeli around here. And I did not questioned wether todays inhabitants of Israel are descendants of the ancient ones. I questioned the validity of having modern Israel represent the civilization in the Apolyton expansion pack - and I stand to my thesis.

And as I said, I agree with you on this issue.

I dont really like the Macabee UU, but it looks like it's the only option we have if Ancient Israel will be "chosen".

Otherwise, you are not bad people alltogether. Just a bit trigger-happy

I cannot judge the behaviour of the soldiers(or are you talking about goverment policies?) until the day I'll stand there and will have to disperse a violent "demonstration"(that includes live fire from their side).
But that's not an issue for this thread.

[Solomyr]

Man Rosacrux, you have really got some strong opinions eh? I find it hard to believe you actually think the Jews, because that is who we are really talking about isn't it, aren't such bad people, but credit us for an uncountable death toll and ethnic cleansing while calling us culturally and politically backwards. I seem to recall that ethnic cleansing was taken to its zenith on 5-6 million Jews and 5-6 million other Europeans.

The cultural and political backwards, now, that that is tough to argue, I mean, I can’t think of any names of Jews that have made contributions to science, art or thought. Oh, wait, got one: Einstein. And wasn’t Sigmund Freud Jewish as well, and Karl Marx, and Brauch Spinoza. You know, Chagall and Modigliani painted some nice pictures, and Mendelssohn, Bizet, and Mahler came up with some nice music, but their stuff was all backwards, wasn’t it? May I remind you that Judaism gave birth to Christianity and Islam. Politically, the court system of ancient Israel is remarkable similar to the modern court systems of the US and most of Europe. And I would like to point out that in this time, women had much more freedom and could take on much more responsibility in the community than just about any other example you can think of 2000 years ago.

And that insignificant piece of land was the only land route between Asia, Europe and Africa until…oh, it still is the only land route between the continents that developed Civilization. Only after ocean travel became possible and reasonably safe did the most important piece of land to the dominant western religions cease to be of military importance for the known world.

Rosacrux, if you want to talk politics, send me an email, but leave politics and your own biased opinions out of this thread. Maybe the fact that Modern Israel has such an impact on things today is reason to place its Golden Age in Modern times. Please make your arguments with logic, and not insults.

I for one vote to keep it modern, for GAMEPLAY reasons. The Americans are the only modern civ, and by the looks of the expansion, will stay that way unless the Hebrews/Israelis are a modern civ.

Any political or historical disagreements that do not pertain to our decision please email me. Let’s let Wernazuma III do his job, and try to keep the insults at a minimum.

EDIT: grammer

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Solomyr
I for one vote to keep it modern, for GAMEPLAY reasons. The Americans are the only modern civ, and by the looks of the expansion, will stay that way unless the Hebrews/Israelis are a modern civ.
.

I second that motion...

[Oligarf]

William of Orange, still hasn't changed or am I wrong? About the Flemish cities, I do think the Flemish have played a important role in the Dutch history. They were part of the Netherlands for some while and making a difference between the people in the South of the Netherlands and Flemish is hard I think. Problem with this is that the Dutch civ will be bigger than the Netherlands and a discussion about the city order is reasonable, as well as a discussion Brussel vs. Amsterdam. It's not a bad idea, I see no chance for the Flemish themselves to be form a civ, to implement their cities that way. With adding them to the Netherlands is reasonable and the cities are important enough to have them in the game I think.

[Fresno]

Hey, someone posting about the Netherlands again! Wernazuma, there you have your second opinion.

Originally posted by Oligarf
Problem with this is that the Dutch civ will be bigger than the Netherlands and a discussion about the city order is reasonable, as well as a discussion Brussel vs. Amsterdam.

I think we should look at historical importance rather as just looking at the current population size. So for example Antwerp, Brugge and Gent should definately be in, as well as the Dutch Hanze cities (Zwolle, Kampen, Deventer, Dordrecht, and others).

When I have some spare time again, I'm willing to make an alternative, historically accurate city list, using the cities from the current list with some Flemish cities. Is this OK with you, Wernazuma & Oligarf?

[Wernazuma III]

Sounds good to me...

[siredgar]

Netherlands = Democracy

The Dutch have always been egalitarian in their principles for government.

[Solomyr]

so Wernazuma III, what is the word with the Israeli/Hebrews civ? seem like debate got pretty quite, and i was wondering if the final decisions where going to be made soon. anyways, i still think the Hebrews/israelis should be a moden golden, that spiced up armor the UU, and the favored gov democracy. just my thoughts.

[Eli]

Ok.... You convinced me.

It should be a modern Civ, with Democracy as favorable goverment and the UU should be a tank with more defense. But, the name should be Israel and the nationality should be either Jews or Israelis. Because no one is calling himself a Hebrew today.

[Wernazuma III]

OK, that's what I want to make if you don't mind:

I still want to make it a "brand" civ of ancient and modern aspects, thus showing more the continuation than the breech in jewish history. Leaders and UUs don't necessarily have to come from the same age, just take the Indians as example.
So, Hebrews will stay Hebrew, the land will be called Israel, David remains as king (?) and the UU will be the Mercava (still not sure about the stats).
Can we agree on this?

[Solomyr]

Wernazuma III...

i say we just come out in the open and call the Civ the 'Jews' that's really what it is. It is based on jewish religion, throught, culture, and calling it an ancient name doesn't, IMO, make the connection to the past very well. King David stays the ruler, more people know him than any other Jewish ruler. We have keep forgetting that just becuase a civs UU is in a certain time frame, that doesn't mean their GA will be at the same time. Say the Jewish Civ builds Smith's trading Co....*poof* Golden Age, 150 turns before they can build their UU.

I'm glad we are making some decisions, maybe this rthing well get finalized so we can get on to playing the expansin

[Wernazuma III]

Solomyr: I'll rename them to jews as it seems to be accepted. Yeah, I'd like to start playing too, but the graphics problems still persists I'll launch another advertising in the civ3-creation forum once I've got more time (after Feb. 5)

[Solomyr]

cool beans man. i would love to help with the expansion if i could, but i don't have much in the way of graphical or coding skills. if there is another way, let me know.

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Fresno
When I have some spare time again, I'm willing to make an alternative, historically accurate city list, using the cities from the current list with some Flemish cities. Is this OK with you, Wernazuma & Oligarf?

As long as you can prove the historical importance of the cities and their order, fine with me.

[Fresno]

Well, I think the order of the cities will always be debatable, but I'll try to make it as accurate as I can.

I'll leave out Brussels, because it isn't a totally Flemish city. Furthermore, Brussels is bigger as Amsterdam and this might cause a problem if I included it; I mean obviously Amsterdam should be the Dutch capital.