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**jasev** · December 3, 2001, 18:57

UU for vikings: drakkar

Yes, I know, it's the same as longboat, but I think it's a better name.

It should be a fast unit, with a good units capacity.

**Wernazuma III** · December 3, 2001, 19:10

I thought more to disable the "sink in ocean" handicap for the longboats, maybe make them one point faster. Troop capacity yet seems strange to me when I take a look at a longboat (less than a trireme I'd guess).
I've decided for "longboat" for reasons of recognition by the average player.

**Rosacrux** · December 3, 2001, 20:49

Moving on fast Wernazuma

Alright, some suggestions once more:

- Vikings

Longboat (or Drakkar - I too like that name better) is a fine UU and I think you should keep the "can cross ocean" ability (after all they did cross the ocean

) and drop the extra movement.
And I guess you mean "shunned democracy, favored monarchy", am I right?

- Turks

It is my NSH opinion that Istanbul should be out - it was a Roman-Greek city under the name of Constantinoupolis (Constantinople, if you like it) and they Turks just got it by force 1100 after it's establishment.
The Jannisary should be a musketman with higher attack rating and maybe mobility. You could make him a 3-3-2 unit or a 2-4-2. It was an early musket (or arquebuzier) unit after all.

- Phoenicia

Quinquinreme was an upgraded trireme (not excactly five rows of paddles, but certainly twice the capacity of carrying and more solid in a sea battle - if there was enough room to manouvre it). You can try one extra movement point, or one extra defense.

**Dr. Nick** · December 3, 2001, 22:10

Aren't the mayas the ones with Jaguar warriors?

**molly bloom** · December 3, 2001, 22:50

The Turkish UU should really be the spahi/sipahi, as they were not simply a military unit, but also a class, rather like Reichsrittern in the Holy Roman Empire; they were a large, centrally controlled cavalry force. The spahi/sipahi owned his horse, and was armed with bow, sword, shield, lance and mace, an dif he had an income in excess of a certain amount, he would be armour clad, too, and would also have to provide a 'cebelu', a fully armed horseman, for each three thousand akces of timar income.
I have always felt that the Janissary was too close to the Mameluke to be truly unique, each being a slave caste of a kind.

**Jason** · December 3, 2001, 23:47

Personally I would keep Jann for the Turks and change Arabs' Mameluke, which has a very Ottoman flavour for me.

Also, for the sake of simplicity, keep Istanbul. Yes, yes, we all wish poor old Byzantium hadn't gotten the historical shaft, but there you go. I mean Washington is founded by the Americans in 4000 BC, Istanbul can be founded by the Turks. We aren't talking about Ancient History 101 here.

**Wernazuma III** · December 4, 2001, 03:01

Thanks for all the input guys.

El Awrence: You're absolutely right, from point of accuracy, jaguar warrior would be much better. Marquis de Sodaq proposed "Balam Warrior" (mayan for jaguar warrior) as a distinction to the aztec UU. The problem is only that creating 2 identical UUs is probably no good idea. We'll have to see; if we can manage to get 15 new UUs with all different attributes, the mayans should have their really unique unit too; if we can't avoid anyway, we should probably change it.

Rosacrux: I meant the govs as I put it. After all, Iceland is the oldest democracy of the world and most viking states had their "althing" (=parlament). Today's scandinavian countries seem to be good as democracies too, so there goes my point.
I will make a small poll about Drakkar/Longboat to see what people really want. The Quinquireme should not have an extra movement, the additional rows did not make it faster but much slower because the ship got so much heavier and less dynamic; I'd go for an extra defence and more capacity.

I agree with Jason about Istanbul; thank god we don't have Byzantines, otherwise we'd have 4 candidates for Byzantion/Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul now...
I also agree that we should rethink the Mameluk. Nevertheless we should keep it an option for it's easily recognizable as being an arab UU.

**Peoux** · December 4, 2001, 03:33

Just a couple of corrections/suggestions on the Vikings:

The city listed first in their city list should be Trondheim, not Trondhiem :-)
I like the list of leaders too, but for consistency perhaps Harald Hardraade should have his "last name" in English too, along with Fairhair and Bluetooth? It would translate to something like "Harshrule" or "Strictrule". If not, the correct spelling of his name is at least Hardraade, not Haardrade.

Looking forward to seeing this "expansion" pack, but is there any way of already adding new civs by yourself, or is there some hardcoded part that cannot be touched by the community?

**Stefu** · December 4, 2001, 03:37

Turks should have their capital at Ankara, since (IIRC) that's what it was when they were just one little state among others during the fall of Byzantine power.

**Wernazuma III** · December 4, 2001, 07:23

thanks peoux: very helpful.

Trondhiem was a typo, an embarassing one though

I'll make the corrections.
BTW: We can add new Civs. There is lamentably obviously a bug in the editor that messes up the tech tree when changing rules though, but there are people apt to make the changes (not me

).

Stefu: It's very difficult to decide between Istanbul and Ankara. Both have their points in favor, both have been capital for quite some time... I've decided on Istanbul, because it is more important as a city. But if there is continuing discontent about that (this seems to be a very controversial point) maybe we should make a poll on that.

**Ecowiz Returns** · December 4, 2001, 08:22

A female Phoenitian leader

Since Hanibal is from Carthage, why not add Dido?

I think she is the female Leader in CIV II Tot.
Also she is a famous legendary leader, from Virgilius Roma Epic, the Enneid (I'm sure I've mispelled that one!).

**Wernazuma III** · December 4, 2001, 09:37

I did not add Dido, because I think it's no good idea to add a mythical person if we have enough historical ones.

**Wernazuma III** · December 4, 2001, 09:43

I've added "Sufet" as phoenician title. Sufets in Carthage are what Consuls were in Rome.

I've changed Longboat to Drakkar Galley;

Yet open points:

Is king a good title for Viking rulers? Titles should if possible be in the native language of civilizations, that adds a feeling of uniqueness.
Is everyone happy with the Civs' UUs?

When that is solved, I'll start Part 3.

**Gangerolf** · December 4, 2001, 14:54

Is king a good title for Viking rulers?

Yes.

I like the list of leaders too, but for consistency perhaps Harald Hardraade should have his "last name" in English too, along with Fairhair and Bluetooth?

Actually, even though it doesn't make much sense, his "official" English name is Hardrada.

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