Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

[molly bloom]

I feel that the attack aspect of the longship really reflects its protean military nature- although the Vikings sensibly preferred to stay within sight of land a majority of the time, the longship could, when necessary, venture into the open sea, out of sight of any watchers on the shore. Combine this ability with its speed, and more importantly its shallow draught, and you have a ship that has amphibious landing class capabilities, and that can when required also sail open sea. The early chronicles express surprise at the seemingly magical appearance of Viking ships from out of nowhere, the difference between the Viking raiders and their opponents, being that the longships could be beached and also sail up deep and shallow estuarine reaches, and be moved overland:

'The longship was the thoroughbred racing warship. It was usually about 25m/ 80ft long. Each gunwale was pierced with holes for oars, and a single mast stepped amidships carried a large, square sail. This gave the longships speed and manoeuvrability and their shallowness of draught allowed them to penetrate rivers They needed no harbours for they were designed to be beached on any shelving sandy shore. '

http://viking.no/e/travels/evikingships.htm

[Yasko]

Cool that you will put the turks in game. I would prefer to have Suleyman I as Ruler. Mehmed II should be the first leader turkish civ. gets, since he is No 1 when it comes the most able turkish ruler, but Suleyman was the most powerful one in turkish history.

I would prefer to have; Mehmed II, Atatürk, Selim I, Murad II, Alp Arslan, Bilge Kagan, Tughril Beg, Koprulu Pasha, Sokolli Pasha, Piri Reis as leaders in given order. Couple of cities from Central Asia should be in the list like, Samarkand, Taskent, etc. and some of the minor cities from todays Turkey could be removed such as Bitlis, Ayas, Silifke....

I prefer Sipahi as a special unit, it could represent the fact that turks has been nomads......

Turkish civ should be Expansionistic and militaristic. Capital should be ISTANBUL

Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Monarchy

[Wernazuma III]

Yasko: Thanks for the leader names. The UU and the ruler however should not be changed anymore IMHO, we've discussed this at length by now.
And we already have too many Civs shunning Communism (everyone it seems wants to shun them for THEIR civ ), so I'd say we keep it as is.

T also want to let the central asian cities to remain mongol cities, even if they're inhabited by turk-people. Otherwise no mongol cities would be left. And furthermore, we shouldn't make the Turks a "pan-turk" civ, just like we don't have a "pan-slavic" russia etc.
Anyway, thanks for the input, I'll update the leader list.

[Optimizer]

The Viking favoured government could be Republic since Iceland is the world's oldest continuous republic. The title should be "godi", the Viking equivalent of a consul.

[Graeme the mad]

IM realy worried that there are no modern UU's in this mod-pack so how about making the turks have one? - The modern turkish army is exceptionally good so possibly an upgraded marine (+2 attack possibly)

[Yasko]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Yasko: Thanks for the leader names. The UU and the ruler however should not be changed anymore IMHO, we've discussed this at length by now.
And we already have too many Civs shunning Communism (everyone it seems wants to shun them for THEIR civ ), so I'd say we keep it as is.

T also want to let the central asian cities to remain mongol cities, even if they're inhabited by turk-people. Otherwise no mongol cities would be left. And furthermore, we shouldn't make the Turks a "pan-turk" civ, just like we don't have a "pan-slavic" russia etc.
Anyway, thanks for the input, I'll update the leader list.

About "pan-turkish" issue, you have right about it better keep it like it is. Originally i suggested militaristic and expansionistic civ type for the turks. But maybe militaristic and religious is a better choise. Turks did build many mosques around modern Turkey and have some "good" architects like Sinan and religious "leaders" like Mewlana and his sufis which was the one of the biggest reasons that turks could convert a big part of the original population to Islam in Anatolia.

"IM realy worried that there are no modern UU's in this mod-pack so how about making the turks have one? - The modern turkish army is exceptionally good so possibly an upgraded marine (+2 attack possibly)"

To be honest Turksih army sucks compared to the US army. IMHO US are the only civ who deserves UU in modern age(1950-2002)

[Willem]

Originally posted by Rosacrux


Longboat (or Drakkar - I too like that name better) is a fine UU and I think you should keep the "can cross ocean" ability (after all they did cross the ocean ) and drop the extra movement.
And I guess you mean "shunned democracy, favored monarchy", am I right?

But they did so by more or less staying close to the coastlines of Iceland and Greenland.

[Patroklos]

Phoenicians

A few note on the Phoencians. Using Hannibal as the leader is not at all historically accurate. Phoenician civilization existed for a thousand years before the founding Cathage, probobly more. Hannibal has the advantage of bieng the only Phoenician the lay-man knows about, but after all he was just a general, not even a Sufet (unlike Roman consuls Sufets were not necessarily military leaders). We probobly want to use a leader that had something to do with their rise to power. No thought should be given to Dido, she was by no means a great Phoenecian leader, her only claim to fame bieng the founding of a dimunative trading colony. Cathage was nothing is history for hundreds of years after her death and she had nothing to do with it's rise to power. I will consult the history books for a better leader name.

Another note. I don't know if you have taken care of this or not but a few of the Persian city names are Phonecian, most notable Tyre. This should be the capital as it was the seat of Phoenician power for a thousand yeas, and is about that much older than Carthage as well. Cathage only became a principle Poenician city because the rest of their domains were captured by the Assyrians.

Last point. With the existance of the Arabs, Egyptians, Persians, Babylonians, Turks, and Phoenicians in the same general area there use on a real world map would make for a very crowded Middle East. The Phenecians would have to start in present day Lebonan, North African expanion was very late in their history. However, since Egytian and Persian power were crushed in the ancient era, and the Phenicians were completly destroyed I guess having an early fight to the death in the Middle East would be accurate.

Choice of an improved naval unit is a good choice, few of Hannibals elephants made it over the Alps, Romans knew how to deal with them from Prryhus of the Greeks long before fighting Carthage.

sorry for any spelling errors

[Ribannah]

Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Mayas

Names: Maya, the Mayas, Mayan

Should be the Maya, without 's'.

Ruler/Title: Pacal/ Bacab

I take it that's Pacal II?

Leaders: Nachi Cocom, Cecilio Chi, Hunak Ke’el

B'alaj Chan K'awiil, Yuxum Balam (IV), Ahho'bak, Chak Kimi, Chac Balam

UU: Balam Warrior (1/2/1); replaces Warrior

Balam is the Mayan word for Jaguar, the right choice. It's the Aztec who should have another UU, the Dragon Warrior!

Cities:

Nakbe, El Mirador, El Baul, Abaj Takalik, Naranjo, Machaquilla, Lagartero, Piedras Negras, Cuello

[jasev]

Re: Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

Originally posted by Ribannah
Balam is the Mayan word for Jaguar, the right choice. It's the Aztec who should have another UU, the Dragon Warrior!

Did dragons really exist in Aztec myths?

Nakbe, El Mirador, El Baul, Abaj Takalik, Naranjo, Machaquilla, Lagartero, Piedras Negras, Cuello

What about Palenque? I think it was the religious capital of the Maya.

By the way, I'm not sure about that "Maya/Mayas" topic. Of course, it's your language so you know it better than me (at least, I hope so ), but in spanish we say "Mayas" as plural from "Maya".

[Ribannah]

Re: Re: Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

Originally posted by jasev
Did dragons really exist in Aztec myths?

Whatdya mean, myths?
There are still dragons about on the earth today.

What about Palenque? I think it was the religious capital of the Maya.

Palenque is already in the list as it is, a decent choice for the capital.

By the way, I'm not sure about that "Maya/Mayas" topic. Of course, it's your language so you know it better than me (at least, I hope so ), but in spanish we say "Mayas" as plural from "Maya".

I'm not Maya myself, so I'm not a 100% sure, but the 's' to create plurals is originally a Celtic thing, I think. Amerind people don't call themselves "a" Maya or "an" Apache at all, so there is not really a singular form.
Btw, did you know that Tuareg (Sahara nomads) is actually the plural of Taugari?

[jasev]

Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

Originally posted by Ribannah
Whatdya mean, myths?
There are still dragons about on the earth today.

Where? I thought I killed the last one last month

Palenque is already in the list as it is, a decent choice for the capital.

OK, sorry, I should have seen it.

I'm not Maya myself

Well, I was talking about english language. After all, we're writing in english here. But now I realized I don't really know where are you from, so when I assumed it was your language it was my mistake.

Btw, did you know that Tuareg (Sahara nomads) is actually the plural of Taugari?

Of course.

[Wernazuma III]

Ribannah: Dragon Warriors? I guess Eagle Warriors (Nahuatl for Eagle: Cuauhtli) would have been better for the Aztecs, but since we try to evade changing existing civs it is best to keep it as it is.
About your additional cities: I kept those with spanish names from the list, not because they're not important but I didn't want to give mayan cities spanish names. This creates the illusion of an already hispanized civ. I'll add Nakbe and Abaj Takalik though. Pacal btw. is the famous Pacal with the mask, of course. About your leaders: I'm no Maya-specialist, so I guess it's best if you write a few words who they were and why we should consider to include them.
Thanks, Wernazuma