Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2)

[molly bloom]

I think both Lindisfarne and Jarrow need to be removed from the list of Viking settlements; Jarrow still retains its Anglo-Saxon origins in its name and Lindisfarne is either Celtic or Anglo-Saxon or a combination of the two, and both are more associated with the Celtic Church and Anglo-Saxon kingdoms than with the Vikings, saving for the Viking raids upon them.

One possibility for the list is Leixlip in Ireland, which Scandinavian posters should have little difficulty in deciphering...gravadleix, anyone? Oh, and Aldeigjuborg in Russia.

[Dr. Nick]

waab, about your sig (which I like ), it's "victoria"

[Gangerolf]

About the Viking city list:
I think Jorvik (York) should be higher up.

possible additions:
Vedrafjord (Waterford, Ireland)
Fyrkat (in Denmark)
Kjönugard (Kiev)
Holmgard (Novgorod)
Jomsborg (Wolin, Poland)
Nonnebakken (in DK)
Lade (in Norway)
Borg (in Norway)
Vinland (in lack of a better name for the settlement in Newfoundland)

One possibility for the list is Leixlip in Ireland, which Scandinavian posters should have little difficulty in deciphering...gravadleix, anyone? .

Got smth to do with salmon? I'll try and find out

[Gangerolf]

Leixlip

That was easy...

http://www.kildare.ie/leixlip/lvt/history/begining-vikings.htm

Viking incursions began in 795 A.D. For 300 years these intrepid sailors and warriors terrorised much of Europe and the Middle East, from Baghdad to Iceland. Dublin was a key Viking settlement. At Leixlip the Battle of Confey was fought in 917 A.D. circa. Battles waged back and forth between the natives and the invaders until a comprehensive Irish victory by Brian Boru in 1014 A.D. In addition to their legacy of fighting, trading, and craftsmanship, they left the site of the two rivers with a name, "Lax-hlaup" or "Salmon Leap," the only inland Norse place name.

[Wernazuma III]

kIndal: Greek Abdera was founded ~650BC. That's still later than spanish Abdera maybe, but greek Abdera was home of a number of important people like Protagoras, Democrit, Leucipp...

[Harlan]

Vikings:
The Longship (or Drakkar) should NOT be able to go on ocean. That's a very powerful ability, and not consistent with what the Vikings did. The Vikings hopped from island to island, even when going to America, and didn't cross the Atlantic in one go. This is consistent with the ability to cross "sea" terrain, which would still be a major boost over the Trireme. Instead, give their unit an offensive bonus.

As mentioned in the part 1 thread, I would advocate having only one SA for them: militaristic, and making up for that with an extra powerful UU.

Turks:
You aren't really doing the Turks here, you're doing the Ottomans, or even just the modern country of Turkey, judging from the city list. The Turks go way back, and had empires in Central Asia hundreds of years before the Ottoman Empire was ever formed. I would recommend making their capital something like Samarkand, or Bactria, and basing the city list around places like that. Otherwise, on a real world map, what civ would be starting in that vast area? Much better than having them bunched up with all the other Med civs. Definitely DON'T do Istanbul!

Even today, the Turks are as much a Central Asian civ as anything. Think countries like Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, where the language is so similar to Turkish that they can understand each other without translators.

I would also recommend the Bombard as their UU, just for something different. I don't know of any civ that has a seige weapon as the UU, that would be an interesting thing to play.

Phoenicians:
Quinquireme (check your spelling) should definitely be an offensive unit: +1 offense. Think of them as the battleships of ancient times. Definitely not an extra move - as pointed out already, if anything they moved slower.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Harlan
Vikings:
The Longship (or Drakkar) should NOT be able to go on ocean. That's a very powerful ability, and not consistent with what the Vikings did. The Vikings hopped from island to island, even when going to America, and didn't cross the Atlantic in one go.

Yes, but:

' "The Vikings who came to America were not the warriors," Hodding insists. "In fact, one of the reasons they didn't stay in America once they got there was because they were outfought by the native Americans who were living along the Canadian coast at the time. The Norsemen who came to America were looking for lumber and for better land, for grazing and for farming.
"But they were certainly adventurous, going out on the open ocean at a time like that as they did. For example, when the Vikings went from Iceland to Greenland, it's known there were 25 ships that set out, but only 14 made it. Some turned around, sure, but others were lost at sea." '

https://www.viking1000.org/lore/lore1.html

The knorr would have often replaced the drakkar for these voyages. Also:

' The Gokstad replicas
The Gokstad ship is the largest find to date - about 80 feet - and was a war ship. It was recovered from a burial mound. It is sleek and fast. Replicas have made ocean passages and weathered hurricanes at sea, so this was a fairly capable vessel. It is clear, though, that the war ship is not a good general trading ship with its relatively low freeboard and limited cargo carrying capacity. '

https://www.digitalnorseman.com/vships/shpintro.html

Also:

'The perilous voyages across the North Atlantic to the Orkneys, Shetlands, Faroes, Iceland and Greenland testify that the shipbuilders of the Viking age not only could build ships which were swiftsailing and capable of attacks in the North Sea area, but extremely seaworthy vessels as well.'

&

'The Viking ships were clinchbuilt. The ships used for travelling to distant shores were a result of a thousand years of experience in the Nordic area. Shipbuilders strove to construct lightweight and flexible vessels, pliant to the forces of sea and wind - working with the elements instead of against them. The hull of the Viking ships is built on a solid keel, which together with a finely curved bow, forms the backbone of the vessel. Strafe after strafe was fitted to keel and stem and these were bolted to each other with iron rivets. This hull shell provided strength and flexibility. After the shipbuilder had given the shell its desired shape, ribs made from naturallycurved trees were fitted and these gave additional strength. To increase flexibility, strafes and ribs were bound together. Cross supports at the waterline supplied lateral support, and extra solid logs braced the mast.

The ships sailed were squarerigged on a midship mast. In a calm, or against a strong headwind, the crew could man the oars.

As the Viking period progressed, different types of ships were developed. There were ships intended for battle which were built for speed and a large crew. There were also ships built for commercial trade, where speed was less important. These had a greater girth to permit more cargo. Trade ships did not have a large crew, and they were better suited for sailing than for rowing. '

http://odin.dep.no/odin/engelsk/norway/history/032005-990460/index-dok000-b-n-a.html

[molly bloom]

Almost forgot- Leif Eiriksson sailed along the 60 degree parallel for 2897 km without sighting land, opening up the trade route between Greenland, Scotland and Norway.

[Dr. Nick]

Harlan, I disagree with offensive bonus. The reason why Alfred put such a stress on the British navy, was because he knew that the vikings were defenceless on their ships. The reason he kept the Vikings at bay, was because he went out to fight them at sea, where the longship was useless. It was a transport ship, and fighting on warships was impossible.

If anything, give it extra movement (they were faster than anything before) and extra hold space (reflect the transport ability, allows to put more troops on it when invading).

[molly bloom]

From the Smithsonian:

https://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/index2.html

[molly bloom]

'Sailing directions from western Norway to Greenland
reads like this:
From the west country sail west but keep far enough north of the Shetlands so that these islands are barely visible in clear weather.
One should stay far enough south of the Faeroes so that their steep and high mountains are just halfway up over the horizon.
In addition one should stay far enough south of Iceland so that you can't see land but just the coast-bound birds.
When you reached the east coast of Greenland you should keep a lookout for landmarks and follow the current west around Cape Farvel to the villages on the south-west point.


This description can be found in Landnáma, the chronicles of Icelandic settlements, Hauksbók, 2nd chapter. A different version can be found in Landnáma Sturlubók, 2nd chapter.'

viking.no/e/travels/navigation/e-no-gre.htm

[Harlan]

Regarding the Longship's ability to sail over ocean. I'm not saying the Vikings weren't good sailors who could sail long distances away from land occasionally. But a lot of that was sheer chutspah and bravery, not the intrinsic quality of the ship (though they were good for their time). The stat that 25 ships set out for Greenland but only 14 made it is indicative.

The game allows ships with the "sea" ability to go out into open ocean, but there's a chance of sinking, if I recall. That would fit perfectly, instead of being able to sail anywhere without drowning.

Also, if you look at it from a playbalance perspective, having the "ocean" ability is a balance breaker. The ability for ships to sail early onto ocean was taken away from the Lighthouse wonder in the patch for the same reason.

Regarding adding offensive power to the Longship, I realize the ships themselves weren't offensive weapons. But if you abstract it out, and consider the ship to be the whole package of Viking raids, then I think that is fully justifable. Otherwise, give them a second UU, that would be an early Marine type unit. If I recall, Age of Kings did this, making the Vikings the only civ with two UUs in the game (my knowledge of the game is sketchy though, I could be wrong).

[Dr. Nick]

Harlan, I was going to propose the same thing yesterday... give them two UUs, as one alone wouldn't make any real difference.

A berserker unit, with marine abilities (could be a plain swordsman with amphibious landing ability) and the longship (extra hold space/movement)

About the movement, I'm doing it based on the fact that the drakkars were much faster than the average ship at the time.

[Wernazuma III]

Harlan/ El Awrence:

I don't think it would be a good idea to give a civ 2 UUs. At first this would double the golden age probability and too much benefit.
After reading the posts I changed ocean to sea ability. Sure, Vikings did sail on ocean but not completely freely. The Sea ability together with an additional movement point allows them to move over 3 ocean squares anyway.
About the additional attack point: I really think that we should not give 2 bonuses without testing the pack. If one UU in the end turns out to be too poor, we can still change it.

[Dr. Nick]

Well, maybe take away a civ attribute.