Stop the America-bashing!

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Beckdawg
So while somemight bash the US(not implying whoever replyed to my comment) the fact of the matter is we can brag and be arrogant at times because we have earned it.

Ah, but you see, precisely because your country has grown so important in recent times, you should not brag or be arrogant, or if you do you have also earned the right to be bashed.

[Dauphin]

Most countries have a "Not invented here" blinkeredness to invention. Name any major invention and most people will name their own nations "greats in the field".

eg.

Nylon

Given that Nylon was so named because the invention of the material occured in New York and London I would not class it as a purely American invention.

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Ah, but you see, precisely because your country has grown so important in recent times, you should not brag or be arrogant, or if you do you have also earned the right to be bashed.

Bravo, well said! When at the top, be prepared to be criticized.

. . . and I say this as an American . . .

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by yin26
At any rate, American culture can often take 'upgraded' forms in other countries that make Americans (or other Westerners) think: "Why do they think Coco's is such a big deal? Gee, they must be really hard up."

It's nice to see you make a light-hearted comment once in a while, Yin. You should do it more often.

[Colonel Kraken]

Re: How about a compromise?

Originally posted by ntyatecafe
Okay, here's a compromise for all those who think that America should not be in the early game, and should instead start in the late game (i.e., 1700's).

Starting a new game, Egypt is the only civilization available to you.
after 68 turns, you now have the option of staying with Egypt, or switching to China (but if you switch, you'd have to start building China with only the 1 settler and warrior). Then, after another 107 turns, you could switch to France (again, you'd have to start from scratch). After another 107 turns, England becomes available (guess what...start from scratch!), then finally, after another 295 turns, you could then choose America and (gasp!) start from scratch again!!!

Doesn't sound like much fun does it? Unless you kept Egypt for the entire game, you'd lose due to not being as advanced! But of course, to make things more realistic, you'd have the declining empire symptoms. After so many turns, Egypt would continuously loose power and ground, China would still keep it's power and ground, but there might be an increase in unrest, England would do okay, but you'd loose almost 1/3 of your population due to the simulated "Black Plage", and then, you'd loose some of your cities and population when America comes into existance...of course, when America comes about, all civs would loose some population to it.
Oh, and don't forget, that if you were playing Japan, around the 1940's you'd loose 2 cities and most of the population of both, and if you're playing Germany during the same time period, you'd loose control of half of your civilization for about 40 years. And remeber that the U.S.S.R fractured into the C.I.S. Russia itself didn't change, but don't forget that Russia was just one part of the USSR. So there would be some limits on it as well. Maybe like loosing all but 1/8 of your civilization (assuming that Russia represents the entire USSR).

Do you really want to play a game like that? If you don't like a Civ, don't use it, or mod it out and replace it whoever you want, but don't critisize a "Rewrite History" game for not being historically acurate.

WOW, have you hit the nail on the head! Since the time I began perusing the Civ forums, I have NEVER understood some fans insistence that Civ be so absolutely historically accurate for precisely the point you make above.

Well said. Thank you!

[Sencho]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Given that Nylon was so named because the invention of the material occured in New York and London I would not class it as a purely American invention.

So, you're saying that a material developed in American labs, by American scientists, with an American process for an American company wasn't an American invention? Intriguing.

Unfortunatly Nylon being for New York and London is an urban legend (see here) and it's name was a corporate invention. The only role London played in Nylon's invention was as one of the two launch cities for the product.

[Dauphin]

I give on the name bit. Damned lying Chemistry lecturer.

However, there is more than one type of "Nylon", just like there is more than one type of plastic.

[Sencho]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I give on the name bit. Damned lying Chemistry lecturer.

However, there is more than one type of "Nylon", just like there is more than one type of plastic.

Don't you love it when lecturers are wrong. :-)

You are quite correct in saying there is more than one form of Nylon and plastic, I was just providing some technological innovations that were developed in the US originally. All good inventions are improved on and used outside their origin point. After all, look at gunpowder.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
I was just providing some technological innovations that were developed in the US originally. All good inventions are improved on and used outside their origin point.

Which is why I feel that any country claiming an invention is not really "correct". They were just the first to develop a successful working scenario.

Look at trains, first used in Britain, but I would hesitate to say that "trains were invented in Britain". Similar with flight, the USA had the first successful flight, but I would hesitate to say they "invented flight".

[Sencho]

Interesting. Who then is more important to society, the one who first thinks it up or the one who makes it workable and available to society as a whole?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
Interesting. Who then is more important to society, the one who first thinks it up or the one who makes it workable and available to society as a whole?

That is like asking "What is the more vital organ, the Brain or the Heart".

You can't do without either, and they're each of paramount importance. They are entwined endeavours.

[Sencho]

I disagree, it's nothing like choosing between the brain and the heart. Remove either of those organs and the patient dies.

But someone who comes up with an idea and doesn't act on it is merely pointless. The idea maybe lost, along with its benefit, but society doesn't die. Whereas the person who brings the idea to the world (either independantly, working with the original creator, etc) can lead to revolutions.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Sencho
Whereas the person who brings the idea to the world (either independantly, working with the original creator, etc) can lead to revolutions.

How can person B bring the idea to the world if that idea was not thought up by person A in the first place?

How do you sell an idea that does not yet exist?

[Thrawn05]

I find it funny how we continue to turn to the Egyptians when comparing other civs. It should be pointed out that Egypt AS A CULTURE OF ITS OWN ended when the Roman Empire fell, and the Muslim raiders took control of it.

[ntyatecafe]

Which is why I feel that any country claiming an invention is not really "correct". They were just the first to develop a successful working scenario.

"...and we stood on the shoulders of giants to thus achieve..."

Probably not an actual quote, I misremember where I heard it, but your point is well spoken. Many times, we took inventions from other inventors, and built them up from there.
Many well-said points to everyone here. Americans cannot truly claim full credit for a lot of these inventions. The Jet fighter I believe was first developed in Germany (I might be wrong), and the Atomic bomb, was developed by an international team of scientists. But despite this, America has still made a huge impact on the world.

As someone else here stated, America should not be left in because of age, or culture, or influence, but instead it should be left in just because it is so much fun to play as America (But I still wish they had used George Washington for the graphic...or better yet, how about Richard Nixon as the president...when another civilization accuses you of wrongdoing, his picture could pop up and say "I am not a crook!!!")