Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[FALVES]

Hey, how about this for unique unit:

Padeira de Aljubarrota

He, he, he!!

Now seriously, we really have a problem with the unique unit, 'cause Portugal earned it's status and glory mostly trough commercial achievements, as such, the best "units" we had were all comercial "units".

[Ecowiz Returns]

First of all, my congratulations for the work done so far.

To help out, I'd like to sugest some more cities:

These are admnistrative centers so their a possible choice:
Viana do Castelo
Vila Real
Aveiro
Portalegre
Setúbal
Funchal
Ponta Delgada
Angra do Heroísmo

These were important in some hystoric event or through some
time:
Covilhã (industrial center - wool)
Sintra (cultural center and strategic location in the conquer of Lisbon)
Avis (the Order of Avis hometown)
Crato (hometown of one of our wannabe kings)
Vila Vicosa


These I just remembered:
Figueira da Foz
Chaves
Portimão

Some important cities of the anciet Portuguese Empire:
Lourenço Marques
Luanda
Cidade da Praia
Mombaça

Anyone remembers ancient commercial inteposts ("feitorias")?

As for the special unit it is unfortunate that the Caravel doesn't work. It would be the perfect choice. But the "Order of Christ" seems a great unit and would trigger the Golden Age right when it happened.

I'll see if I can pick up some roster of important historic events to help build our civilization's history. When do you think it would be best to start: with Viriato of the Lusitans, with the Count D. Henrique or with Afonso Henriques (our first King)?

[Zealot]

Ecowiz, thank you for your help. I'll add those cities to the list ASAP.

About our UU, I still need to research the precise name of those knights in english. Since they were no longer Templars (Templars had been disbanded a long time ago), we must do it first. We can't just call it "Order of Christ" (even because it's kind of offensive to consider such name nowadays).

I can't remember any ancient commercial inteposts, but if we do some research, I'm sure we'll find some.

About the Portuguese history, well, I think you could mention Count Henrique, but our history really began when Afonso Henriques declared Portugal's independence in 1149. So you should focus the start from there.

[History Guy]

It seems to me that Portugal (as much as no one likes it) is to Spain what Austria is to Germany. It is so much like Spain that the average bozo regards it as part of Spain. Though the Portuguese did get around, they never really had a stable empire. Their big thing was the slave trade actually. They were at one point pretty powerful, destroying some large African kingdoms, yes, but you've got to remember that those kingdoms fought with spears while the Portuguese fought with guns and cannon, so nations such as Benin didn't have much of a chance.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by History Guy
It seems to me that Portugal (as much as no one likes it) is to Spain what Austria is to Germany. It is so much like Spain that the average bozo regards it as part of Spain. Though the Portuguese did get around, they never really had a stable empire. Their big thing was the slave trade actually. They were at one point pretty powerful, destroying some large African kingdoms, yes, but you've got to remember that those kingdoms fought with spears while the Portuguese fought with guns and cannon, so nations such as Benin didn't have much of a chance.

And you call yourself a history guy?!?
Portugal was one of the first European countries to abolish slavery! If it was so important to the economy, do you think it would be abolished?!? Look at the US' civil war! The South didn't want to abolish slavery exactly for economic reasons!

And the battles Portugal was involved in Africa was (in the begining of the discoveries age) only in North Africa against well armed moors! And cannons weren't invented yet!
Now for sub-saharian territories, I know not of any military skirmish against the natives. Much unlike the British.
There was slave capture, but nothing involved military activity. Unlike the Spanish and its well known "colonization" of Mexico and South America...

[History Guy]

I posted that actually to see the reaction, actually, more than for any other reason.

You are right that Portugal was one of the first European countries to abolish African slavery, but it was also one of the first European countries (if not the first) to discover it. For as soon as the Portuguese landed in Nigeria they were making war on, not only the Moors, but the Nigerian civilization of Benin. In the 1600s they were using cannon against Benin's forces, and cannon was most certainly about at that point. When parts Benin fell, the Portuguese took over and enslaved the population. It's true that they abolished slavery early on, but they also helped bring it about in Europe, perhaps not as much as the Dutch, but they certainly did. Sorry, but that's how it was.

I do not pretend that Americans didn't have slavery, and that the British didn't have slavery, and that the Spanish didn't had slavery, but I also do not pretend that the Portuguese didn't have it, which I will confess was fairly brief.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by History Guy
You are right that Portugal was one of the first European countries to abolish African slavery, but it was also one of the first European countries (if not the first) to discover it.

I'm not sure of what you understand as slavery, but slavery exists since Feudalism or even since more ancient times (unfortunantly)! Aldo Portugal was one of the first nations that made more use of slave trade, Portugal wasn't the first or one of the first to discover it!

What i mean is:

Who built the Pyramids?
Slaves (+/- 2000 BC)!!

What were the Servants in Feudalism goverments in Europe in the Dark Ages?
Slaves!!

What were all servants in Greek, Macedonian Greek (for instance: in the time of Alexander, the Great) and Roman Empire?
Slaves!!

You see...servants are slaves too! Servs don't earn money or anything for what they do, and what they do and even the servants themselves are property of there Masters! I don't understand why you only refer slaves to those of Africa! They weren't the first you know, they were just the last!

Edit: I substitued Servs by Servants (english mistake...sorry)
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Originally posted by History Guy
I posted that actually to see the reaction, actually, more than for any other reason.

You naughty, naughty boy!

Originally posted by History Guy
For as soon as the Portuguese landed in Nigeria they were making war on, not only the Moors, but the Nigerian civilization of Benin. In the 1600s they were using cannon against Benin's forces, and cannon was most certainly about at that point

I didn't know that. Portugal, from 1580 to 1640, were under Spanish dominance.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by History Guy
It seems to me that Portugal (as much as no one likes it) is to Spain what Austria is to Germany.

Portugal is not a single bit to Spain what Austria is to Germany! Portugal is 800 years old (even under a Spanish King, the title was King of Spain and Portugal). Austria and Germany were once a single country. That hystorically never happened between Portugal and Spain other than under Roman rulling (and by then they weren't yet Portugal and Spain were they).

Originally posted by History Guy
It is so much like Spain that the average bozo regards it as part of Spain.

The last part of your comment is, unfortunatelly very true. The main reason, though is very wrong! It's not due to similarities but solelly due to lack of information an "average bozo" has on Portugal.

Originally posted by History Guy
Though the Portuguese did get around, they never really had a stable empire.

WHAT???
For more than four centuries Portugal, with the minor territory it always had, and so few population had phisical representation in all corners of the known world.
Heck, the Portuguese made the World known to everybody!
What exactly is your definition of a stable empire anyway?

Originally posted by History Guy
Their big thing was the slave trade actually. They were at one point pretty powerful, destroying some large African kingdoms, yes, but you've got to remember that those kingdoms fought with spears while the Portuguese fought with guns and cannon, so nations such as Benin didn't have much of a chance.

Guns??? In the XV and XVI century? Whose?
And, actually, what you are talking about is technological superiority. And, as you could testify in the previous posts, the Portuguese greatest unit was a non-military one!
Trade was the activity we were best! And it was not only slaves (not very important in the beginning, only became important when the american colonies begun) but capturing the commercial routes of silk and spices that made Portugal (along with Spain) the strongest nation in the XV and XVI centuries (give or take some years ).
As for slaves, I believe my countrymen allready explained that part.

Portuguese hystory is not your strongest point, is it History Guy?

Keep reading this thread. Hopefully some people may help you a bit, on that.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Keep reading this thread. Hopefully some people may help you a bit, on that.

I'm always at everyone's disposal!

[Jay Bee]

This is getting amusing

Come on Zealot, you mention the period of Spanish dominance for the bad things (Benin affair, as if Spain had anything to do with that) and forget all the rest, e.g. w/o that period of "Spanish dominance" Brazil would have never been what is today (Tordesillas Treaty anyone?).

Ecowiz, as much as I agree with you that Austria vs Germany has absolutely nothing to do with Spain vs Portugal, to say that historically Portugal and Spain were not a single country except for the Roman years is absurd. As I posted above, 2200 years out of 3000, Portugal and Spain have been together. You just can't forget that.

---

Seriously now, I am really enjoying this thread, it helps me see many things from the other side. That you perceive the infamous 60 years as a "period of Spanish dominance" is very enlightening for me. Let me ask you, what would have happened if Philip II (Philip I) actually moved his capital to Lisbon, as many of his advisors strongly suggested?

(We should have had this discussion in... you know which forum ).

[JayKay]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Let me ask you, what would have happened if Philip II (Philip I) actually moved his capital to Lisbon, as many of his advisors strongly suggested?

I don't think the Spanish would like that, and they would probably revolt against Philip II and murder him!

But what do you think? And why are you asking?
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Come on Zealot, you mention the period of Spanish dominance for the bad things

Bad things? What bad things?

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Let me ask you, what would have happened if Philip II (Philip I) actually moved his capital to Lisbon, as many of his advisors strongly suggested?

Not even his beautiful name would save him from getting killed!

Originally posted by Jay Bee
(We should have had this discussion in... you know which forum ).

Yes, maybe we should, before someone successfully thread jacks this thread!

[Jay Bee]

The Spanish at that time were not as homogeneous as you seem to think. The Aragonese would not have cared at all. And I seem to suspect that neither the Castilians.

Lisboa was clearly the most important Iberian city (both politically and geograpghically) at that time, so it probably would not have been a bad idea. I have read in many English history books that had Philip II had done that, the Spanish (Iberian) empire would probably lasted much longer.


Sorry, I have to go. More later

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Zealot
That was also Itoi's idea, but he didn't play the game yet. And I think you didn't too.

I have been playing Civ3 for the last two weeks.

Although Caravels were pretty used by the Portuguese, in the game that UU wouldn't make the play any fun! Because:
1. Your unique unit must have its first military victory in order to that civilization enter its golden age;

You can also enter GA peacefully. Besides if you get boosted-up Caraval in the age everybody else has sails (this is what I propose to rename the generic caravel) you should be able to win. It is just like with Man'o'Wars.

2. Caravels aren't properly military units;

see supra

3. You don't need boats to trade resources in Civ 3 like you need in real life!

Yeah, but you need to discover see routes to build harbors etc. - Caravel could be good for this (it could be faster than Sail for example)

In those battles, the King of Portugal had the support of an "Order of Christ". They were Knights, that were former Templars, and had the support of the "Church". It's all in the link I posted above.

Yeah, it is a unique unit, but IMHO the real power of Portugal lied in its sea power, not land power. English, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese built their empires on the sea-"something" (sea-trade, sea-exploration, sea-warfare etc.). The CSU should reflect this.

Oh, and yes, it's "carvalho" (you guys are making me one happy portuguese! how did you learn this things?)

Something you learn playing a lot of strategy games