Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing.

You know Jay Bee, you are absolutely right on this subject! I keep forgetting that in the eyes of non-Iberian male descendents they get so jealous of the macho latino!

One more thing, Jay Bee. The Iberians as a country was extinct when the Romans conquered the peninsula. So let's not talk any more about Iberians on this thread. Please.

[Jay Bee]

OK Zealot, this is your thread. But I was talking about the Iberian civilization, not the Iberian country (whatever that means).

[PGM]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
At it's peak, Spain included Portugal

IMHO, this line of thought is wrong. If we start taking civilizations away from civ3 because somewhere in time they belonged to another nation, we'll have to play the game with very few civs. Sure, Portugal was during a small period of time under Spanish domain. Does that overrule the fact that Portugal was once one of the two most prosperous nations on the planet? Does that overwrite the fact that Portugal was once ruler of Brazil, many parts of India, a great deal of south-western Africa, Macao, Timor, etc., and that in most cases this lasted for centuries? Does it make it less important that Portuguese Discoveries showed the world new naval routes, new people, new cultures,... ? I don't think so. Just think of the Romans...

Originally posted by Jay Bee
No matter how you look at it, Spain and Portugal are definitely very close culture-wise. Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing. After all, Portugal and Spain share 2300 years of common history, you can't get pass that . We are definitely part of the same civilization. Imho that's our strength. That's what I was trying to highlight in my previous posting above.

Again, we're taking civs away from civ3. Now it's because they are close culturally? There's a lot of nations already in the game who share cultural similarities. What kind of problem can this be, when we have Americans in civ3 starting in 4000BC ? Isn't this a little more flagrant problem?
Again, all of Europe was under Roman domain. But still, we somehow have 4 European civilizations in civ3, plus the Romans. And looks like as if more will come. Humm... Sounds like if the nations' own merit play key role here.
I think that if people don't know about Portuguese culture, that's ok. If it's not good for geographical gameplay to have a Portuguese civ, I can understand. If people can't tell Portugal apart from Spain in a map, fine. If people don't think that it's "cool" to have a civ named Portuguese, ok. But those are personal preferences, and I think that in no way they should harm the merits of the Portuguese civilization as one of the greatest ever to exist, nor should it hamper Portugal's right to be amongst the nations in one of the future civ3 expansions.
And you might not believe it, but I'm not just saying this because I happen to be Portuguese...

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
But I was talking about the Iberian civilization, not the Iberian country (whatever that means).

Jay Bee, maybe I shouldn't talk about an Iberean country, since it never existed as a country with a unique regent. I have to recognise it wasn't literally true. I'm sorry for that.

But as I posted before, the Iberean civilization was absorbed by the pax romana. And before the Romans came to the Iberean Peninsula, there was nothing great about them! Nothing compared to the glory of the portuguese and spanish empire which started in the XVI century.

And a reminder that when the romans arrived at the iberean peninsula, the predominant tribe on what is today the portuguese territory were the Lusitanians.

Nevertheless, if you know any iberean cultural value that existed before the roman invasion and survived to the present day, I would like to know it.
It would certainly be implemented on a mod or something about an Iberean civilization.

[Jay Bee]

Whe I said "Iberian" I was not referring to the pre-Roman tribes. "Iberian" would be a fair, objective denomination to lump Spain and Portugal together into a single civ, since both countries occupy the Iberian peninsula. Would you prefer "Hispanics" instead? I wouldn't


PGM,
In my humble opinion to state that "Portugal belonged to another nation" is what constitutes a wrong line of thinking. That's just one interpretation of history. Mine differs. As I said before, the nations of the Iberian peninsula share 2300 years of history in common. That is for me what really matters in terms of defining a civilization.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
As I said before, the nations of the Iberian peninsula share 2300 years of history in common. That is for me what really matters in terms of defining a civilization.

Could you please define that 2300 years timetable (or timeline, sorry about my english, don't know what's the appropriate word)? I'm trying to understand you here.

[Jay Bee]

Well, actually I have to rectify, it's 2200 years, not 2300

It is accepted that Iberian history commences when the Phoenicians and Greeks visited the peninsula in search for silver, tin and other metals. The Phoenicians founded Gades (Cadiz) ca, 1000 BC and it is believed that not much after the foundation of Cadiz, they established other coastal settlements, including Olisipo (Lisbon) and Malaga. Alternatively, Olisipo might have been founded by the Tartessians, an indigenous civilization that streteched from the W (Algarve) to the E (Almeria and Murcia) of the peninsula. In what is today Northern Portugal there were the Celts, occupying as well what is today Castile, Galicia and Asturias.

After the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Greeks, Tartessians/Iberians and Celts there were the Romans. After the Romans there were the Visigoths and then the Arabs. Let's stop in 1139 AD.

Up to this point, 2000 years of history have passed in which the territories that Portugal occupies today have been subjected to the same fate as their neighbouring Spanish territories. In 1139 AD Portugal secedes from the young kingdom of Castile to form an independent country. Portuguese independence lasts up to 1580 and is regained again in 1640 to this date. Thus Portugal has existed as an independent entity, separated from the rest of the nations of Iberia for 802 years. Since we are in 2001, that makes 2200 years where the destiny of Portugal was tied to the destiny of the rest of Iberia

Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal, as it was created in 1479.

[JayKay]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal, as it was created in 1479.

Indeed, Portuguese borders are the oldest ones in Europe, and one of the oldest of the World!

Anyway, i see what you mean JayBee, and i agree with you - we (Portugal and Spain) do have many centurys of history, interaction and competition together, but i don't think those first centurys (those civilizations weren't really Portuguese and Spanish yet) had the same importance as the golden age of Portugal and Spain, as separate nations, in the Discovery Age!

I mean, all the civilizations of the world had a common begining in some part of the history!

So...what i really mean is that we should take into account, what parts of the world history was marked by what civilizations, and only those which had some kind of influence in world history should be included!!

That's why the Americans are included (perhaps not the biggest reason of course - i mean the game is made by americans)! They aren't a really "civilization", they are really a mix of other civilizations (english, french, spanish, africans), but that's what makes them so unique, and that's why they are included in Civilization (and because they marked the 19th and 20th century history)!!

So...in conclusion, what i mean is that Portugal and Spain had a very big impact in world history! They alone dicovered lots of other countrys - the others nations just followed our (Spanish and Portuguese) steps! But all the impact in world history that our two countrys had, was made as two independent and competitive nations!

So...that's why i think we shouldn't join the two nations! Aldo i understand the unification of the Iberian Peninsula (for matters of simplification and common history), i can't agree with it!

But i agree with pretty much everything else you said, Jay Bee!

BTW, i have a suggestion! Why don't we make the Portuguese and the Spanish Civilization apart and also an Iberian Civilization! That way we could have them all!

Got to love that word! ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL! lol
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[Trifna]

Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Zealot


Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot!

Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

I know all what you said and you didn't even gave any argument against what I said... I said this: that Spain and Portugal were close enough culturally to join them in a whole. I didn't even gave a word about if they were strong anywhere and it's not really my first criteria when I wanna know which culture to put.

[Itoi]

I just really wanna say that Portugal is a great country!!!!
they did more for the world than many of the countrys that we know...
I saw one day on the history channel the mankinds achievments top 100, and vasco da gama discovery of india was on a better position than the landing on the moon!!!
So dont try to join Portugal with Spain, just becouse we are a small country...
if you join spain and portugal then you would have to join USA with Canada.
Im playing freeciv and they understand the value of portugal!!
Lisbon is the capital there followed by guimaraes!!!

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain

Originally posted by Trifna
I know all what you said and you didn't even gave any argument against what I said... I said this: that Spain and Portugal were close enough culturally to join them in a whole. I didn't even gave a word about if they were strong anywhere and it's not really my first criteria when I wanna know which culture to put.

Ok. Then let me say you one thing:
I've been on vacation in Spain, France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Germany. And you know what? The only difference in culture is the language and some of the food. That's why we have an United Europe. Like there are the United States. The way of living is pretty much similar!

But let me tell you also that 20-25 years ago, the Portuguese and the Spanish culture were very different! And if you go back 5 centuries, the difference is even greater. That's why 5 centuries ago the 2 greatest world powers were on the Iberian Peninsula. And 3 centuries ago the greatest world power was on the British isles.

[Jay Bee]

Have any of you guys ever played 'Alba de América'?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Itoi
Im playing freeciv and they understand the value of portugal!!

You mean you've been playing freeciv and never invited me to play with you? And you consider yourself my friend?

To punish you, I won't invite you to the MoO 2 game that I'm going to make with JayKay tomorrow night on Kahn!
Nor will I lend you my Civ 3 CD! (of course not, that would be piracy)

I'm just kidding with you, Itoi. I just want to ask you your oppinion on the portuguese special unit. Thanks.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Have any of you guys ever played 'Alba de América'?

No, never heard of it. What is it?

[Jay Bee]

It's a Civ2 scenario. You guys play/played Civ2, right?