The Iroquois Debate: Lets clean up the mess we've created.

[Ribannah]

Denouncing gets you nowhere, surely you must have noticed that by now. It is ratio that might discover falsehoods. My sources aren't perfect, and neither am I. I am quite willing to adjust my statements if appropriate, and have shown that many times in the past.

About your poll: it is very misleading, because the choice "they are deserving and have been included", which I would vote for, is absent!

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

[orange]

Originally posted by Ubik
Is this of some significance? I mean, besides bashing eachother, is there any point to a thread devoted to wether the Iroquis in Civ3 is a "right" thing or a "PC" thing or whatever?

No less signifigant than anything else debated or discussed on this forum.

Orange and co are trashing Iroquis and the whole (north) amerindian culture, in order to prove that they shouldn't be included in the game.

Untrue. I think there is a lot that the American Indians should be praised for. What she provides are as you said, gross over-exaggerations.

- A civilization that made some significant achievements in the fields of politics and agriculture. The US constitution (I am not saying this, people who are studying this subject hard are) is based largely in a)the ideas of the French enlightment, b)the Charta of Britain and c)the Iroquis confederation.

Notice how the Articles of Confederation lasted not ten years before being replaced? The American system is not based on Iroquois confederation.

As to wether it should or should not be in Civ3... I believe it should. It serves diversity and that is what counts after all - the fact that we are not all the same and never will.

You're entitled to this opinion

Of course, as many have pointed out, by that very same manner, the Arabs should be in the game, and also the Spaniards.

This is my opinion. These civs were superior to the Iroquois. That is why I feel they deserve to be in the game. No less "cultural diversity" by including them over the Iroquois. If there was 32 civs, I'd support the Iroquois and maybe another tribe like the Sioux.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Ubik
What were the Iroquis:
- A civilization that made some significant achievements in the fields of politics and agriculture.

As well as military and social skills.

The US constitution (I am not saying this, people who are studying this subject hard are) is based largely in a)the ideas of the French enlightment, b)the Charta of Britain and c)the Iroquis confederation.

What were the Iroquis not:

- A large civilization, with a massive effect on human history.

As to wether it should or should not be in Civ3... I believe it should. It serves diversity and that is what counts after all - the fact that we are not all the same and never will.

But, Ubik, this differs in no way from what I have been saying all along!
However, I have also said that size and effect on history (both of which would speak in favour of the Spanish) are not the criteria I would use. My main criterium is contribution to the advance of human civilization, with diversity
added for reasons of gameplay and fun.

My criterium calls for the Arabs (to place the Persians), but not for the Spanish. However, everybody is entitled to using their own criteria and if that leads them to the conclusion that the Spanish should be in instead of the Iroquois, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is people denying me the right to have MY criterium or to use the available info to make my conclusions.

Skennen!

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
My main criterium is contribution to the advance of human civilization, with diversity
added for reasons of gameplay and fun.

What new ideas do you feel the Iroquois have brought to the advance of human civilization?

Also, by this logic, the Spanish should be VERY important.

[Ribannah]

Ubik's post and my reply, as well as Firaxis' civ description, should give you an idea about the Iroquois. For details, for the moment I advise you to read some of my earlier posts (I will be back later when I have more time).

What did the Spanish contribute?

[Jay Bee]

Orange, Miss I-know-everything-you-are-awfully-ignorant has yet to realize that for many people on Earth, a key point in human civilization advancement is the fostering of the arts. When she realizes that, she will understand that many people on Earth consider the paintings by Goya, Velazquez or Picasso (to cite only three "barely" recognizable names in a single discipline) as important in terms of advancement of human knowledge as e.g. the discovery of nuclear fission. But hey, what am I talking about? Miss I-know-etc-etc already wondered in a different thread what does art have to do with anything

I could go on and on talking about other branches of knowledge but it's totally useless. No less than twenty people have already tried to talk in a civilized manner to her about this and other topics to absolutely no avail.


(EDIT: Spelling)

[Ubik]

Ribanah My opinion - that the Iroquis should be in the game - is not based on wether the I. are "more important" than the Spaniards - they are not.

The Spanish civ - along with some of the most memorable atrocities ever commited - gave us too much to be ignored. In the fields of art, in opening a whole new world for the Euros (well, that could fall into the category of said atrocities ...) advances in naval technic, in art and literature, dominated half world till lost to the Brits, art again... damned, they were not excactly an insignificant civ, on the contrary they are very significant. Not to mention that half Americas and a number of other countries have Spanish as their first language (USA is next, wait and you'll see them latinos changing the "official" English )

It couldn't though be a call between the Iroquis and the Spaniards - if the I. were to be removed, the Mayan or Incan should be placed there. The Americas need at least a third civ.

And I believe not in diversity in game terms, but cultural diversity in general. Don't mess those two.

To the bottom line, 16 civs is just way too little... to have all the really significant civs and serve diversity (or representation of the whole earth) in the same time, the minimum number is 24 civs and the ideal would be around 30.

The 16 civs are a compromise and as such we have to face it...

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Ribannah
What did the Spanish contribute?

Oh, so here we go again? Ribannah, will you never learn?

[Myrddin]

Now we have a Spanish-American alliance againt the Iroquois;
the Spanish because they have been left out and the Americans because some of them take a narrow view of other cultures.

The Iroquois are in to fill up the American land mass with enough civilisations. If it compensates for America's history of dealing dishonourably with native Americans, so be it.

[Jay Bee]

No Myrddin, don't misunderstand. If anything, this is an 'alliance' against arrogance. Ubik put it out quite well twice, please read his posts again.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ubik

I would have a great dillema on whom to abolish - the French are far too important to be left out, gosh are you barbaric or something? The French ideas have shaped the world and some of you want them out? )

Peace, brothers

That would be me.

Actually, my point was that there are currently 3 Western European cultures in the game (4 if you count the Americans as such, which essentially it is), and 2 Southern European civs, and the Russians are an Eastern European Civ, giving a total of 6 civs out of 16 from Europe. While that may reflect Europe's dominant role in shaping world history, I think it is a little TOO Europe-heavy. Of the European cultures given, I can only imagine dropping the French.

Yes, I know they were very important, but when compared to the contributions of the other European civs, I think they are the most expendable.

Cheers.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Ribannah
What did the Spanish contribute?

Ribanita, same question, same answer:

Originally posted by Waku in "The most glaring omission..." thread
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean,
Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

since you weren't able to refute it

[orange]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Now we have a Spanish-American alliance againt the Iroquois;
the Spanish because they have been left out and the Americans because some of them take a narrow view of other cultures.

I'm the last person you want to label a racist or ethnocentric. So I respectfully ask that you **** off.

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Ubik's post and my reply, as well as Firaxis' civ description, should give you an idea about the Iroquois. For details, for the moment I advise you to read some of my earlier posts (I will be back later when I have more time).

No Ribannah. Don't refer me to another post. You have made several (none of which I believe have any content whatsoever)

I want you to post one achievement that the Iroquois civilization gave to the advancement of the human race, without help, before European contact.

What did the Spanish contribute?

This is truly, truly ignorant.

[orange]

Ubik - thanks for clarifying what your opinion is

Btw: yes, it is a shame that there are only 16 civs in the game...32 IMO would give an awesome representation of the most dominant civs in history. Maybe we'll see 16 civs in the XP...hopefully not just 4 or 6.

The Americas do need another civ, IMO the Maya or Inca would do better than the Iroquois, but I still believe that the Spanish and Arabs got short changed, moreso the Spanish since there is no representation of post Roman Empire Iberian Civilization in the game, yet there are a few Middle East civs which can be thought of as "evolving" into the Arabs...(even if this is factually and historically false...)