The Iroquois Debate: Lets clean up the mess we've created.

[Jay Bee]

[Roman]

I would not even call Iroquis a civilization* - more like a bunch of tribes, so for me there is no question: Iroquis should not have been included.

As for the Arabs though...

*I am not trying to insult anyone or sound condescending. But one cannot have a civilization without cities, writing (more advanced than the drawings on skins...), etc. This does not mean that Iroquis were in any way inferior to other peoples, merely that they should not be in a game that is all about civilization.

[monkspider]

read my previous post Roman

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by orange
Now, why can't you say that Ribannah? That I can not only relate to, but even somewhat agree with!

Your posts need something called "substance"

I HAVE said that on numerous occasions (well, not exactly that, since I don't count the Iroquois as representing the plains and pueblo tribes), but then I was called an idiot for my ridiculous claims that the Iroquois had a government, or farming, or art, etcetera, and that instead they were cannibalistic nomads.
Like Roman just did, only far worse and with a lot of abuse. And most of all without substance. Me: here is a link to the Iroquois constitution. They: your links stink and so do you. Me: here is a list of Iroquois villages. They: you are an idiot to claim they built houses. Me: here is an overview of the land they controlled. They: that is completely absurd, they were little more than chimpansees. Me: these are the criteria I would use to select civlizations. They:
we hate you because you don't put the Spanish in. And so on.
I even gave points for the Spanish to be in the expansion pack, at first.

But this is not just happening to me, the same respectless barbarism is happening all over the boards and it's getting worse by the day.

[Dr. Nick]

[ruckus9]

I'm reminded of something I've heard that applies to this in a way. When asked if it was fair that white people couldn't tell jokes about blacks nowadays without being condemned for being racist, Steve Harvey a black comedian said something along the lines of (in a sarcastic voice)Wow, I get to tell jokes about how poor my people are and the experiences related to that and white people can't. That was how I paraphrased it because I forgot the exact words.

I can't tell you how much I agree with that. Can you see how absurd it is? That Europeans have made African-americans the way they are and now some are upset because they get a moment in the spotlight. Let them have it, for Christ's sake! And let the Iroquois get their moment in the spotlight. Is it really such a big deal to a bunch of adults (I'm assuming) to let the Iroquois be in the game?

Everyone in the world's brain has already been crammed to the brim with the accomplishments of the "winners" or "the most influential"; the Spanish have their numerous history books and their government to foster respect for their heritage, for example. The Iroquois and the Native Americans they represent don't. Who knows? Maybe the game will compel others to learn about the history of the Native Americans and see beyond the cowboy stereotypes. Let's appreciate the diversity of cultures for once and not worry about the "most influential" or the "winners." I know they are the ones that history put almost all their attention on on but that's a pretty limited view of human history in my mind.

[Jay Bee]

Couple of familiar sentences to accompany the situation described three posts above this:


"As you sow winds, be ready to reap storms"


"Be careful how you quarrel with the Spanish*. Although you may do them much harm, yet assuredly you will all be destroyed and rooted off the earth if you do"

(*English in the original-- interestingly, this one was pronounced by a Native North American chieftain)

[Boris Godunov]

[SIZE=1]

That Europeans have made African-americans the way they are and now some are upset because they get a moment in the spotlight. Let them have it, for Christ's sake!

I don't recall this thread saying anything about African-Americans. However, I don't recall anyone using the reasoning here that you are ascribing to those of us who disagree with Iroquois inclusion in the game.

For me, "letting them have" a spot in the game, as if it is meant as some sort of balm for past wrongs done them, is condescending. I would much rather see such wrongs addressed in real life rather than a computer game. There is a reason I give money to the UNCF, and it isn't because I feel "conquerer's guilt," it's because I think it's a worthy cause.

As for Civ3, I think the Iroquois were an advanced primitive tribe, but not a "civilization" as such. I would rather see the game dispassionately consider influence and impact on the world than commit meaningless "social justice."

Cheers.

[ruckus9]

I guess my meaning got distorted. My point was that this is just a game and having the Iroquois in it is not that big of a deal to me. The analogy was that being able to tell jokes about yourself is not such a big deal either. The thing that ties them together is that people make a big deal out of a trivial decision when they have already gotten so much in the past already. I didn't intend to defend African Americans, I was merely using that incident as an analogy to this problem. Admittedly I rambled, but that was pretty much the main idea. In reference to the "conqueror's guilt" that wasn't my intention at all, but I've seen alot of racism and that view tends to get mixed up in my thinking. But we're all free to express our opinions here, right?

I would rather see the game dispassionately consider influence and impact on the world than commit meaningless "social justice."

As for the "social justice" I clearly stated that I would rather have more distinct cultures and not base my view entirely on modern influences and impact since this is not a history game. If Civs were based entirely on "influence" and "impact" then yes the Iroquois would be out in favor of the Spanish or Arabs. But it isn't all about that, is it? Why else would Firaxis have the Iroquois or Zulus in? I would say that cultural distinction is mixed into the criteria of a civilization being in the game.

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I HAVE said that on numerous occasions (well, not exactly that, since I don't count the Iroquois as representing the plains and pueblo tribes), but then I was called an idiot for my ridiculous claims that the Iroquois had a government, or farming, or art, etcetera, and that instead they were cannibalistic nomads.
Like Roman just did, only far worse and with a lot of abuse. And most of all without substance. Me: here is a link to the Iroquois constitution. They: your links stink and so do you. Me: here is a list of Iroquois villages. They: you are an idiot to claim they built houses. Me: here is an overview of the land they controlled. They: that is completely absurd, they were little more than chimpansees. Me: these are the criteria I would use to select civlizations. They:
we hate you because you don't put the Spanish in. And so on.
I even gave points for the Spanish to be in the expansion pack, at first.

But this is not just happening to me, the same respectless barbarism is happening all over the boards and it's getting worse by the day.

I just started revisiting the CivIII boards as of two weeks ago, and got into the Iroquois debate last week. I can't speak of what has happened in the past.

What I do know, is you're the same person who back up the Iroquois by saying that they had knowledge of Metallurgy, Navigation, Astronomy, Monotheism, Theology, etc. etc. etc. and claiming them to have had signifigant impact on world history. To both claims, myself and others have yelled a resounding and uncontested "FALSE!"

ruckus - would you yell if the Iroquois were in the game over the Americans? I'm guessing you would, because you'd like to play as the Americans and you think the Americans are by far more deserving than the Iroquois...correct? Then it's not a "moment in the spotlight" for the Iroquois anymore, it's just plain wrong...for a civ as unworthy as the Iroquois when compared to the Americans being in the game when the Americans are not...correct?

Now, think of how our Hispanic friends feel.

[Myrddin]

In my view a civilisation must qualify by the amount of time it has existed; perhaps the Iroquois have a better claim to be be in Civ III than the Americans

[orange]

And when do you define when the Iroquois civilization began and ended?

[St Leo]

The Aboriginals aren't in the game because Firaxis thought they had not enough to offer.

The Maori are, definetly, not less important than the Iroquois.


I tend to fall into the camp that sees the Arabs living on in Civ 3 through the various Fertile Valley Civs and Egypt.

sarcasm(){

Why are the English and French in the game? After all, the French are basically a branch of the Frankish German Empire and the English are nothing more than German Barbarians running around in Albion.

}

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by ruckus9
The Spanish have their numerous history books and their government to foster respect for their heritage, for example. The Iroquois and the Native Americans they represent don't.

Actually, the Iroquois have their history books (and they are active on the WWW, too), but outside their own community few people are willing to read and prefer to cherish their ignorance.

As to the duration of the Iroquois as a civilization: it took a while for the nomadic bands that had come from Asia and stayed in the north to cluster into tribes, I think the earliest date you could give them for surfacing as a civilization would be around 1300 AD. The Iroquois nation (which is not the same) started in 1570 and fell apart in several steps. Whether a claim can be made for an Iroquois civilization to still exist today, depends on the definition.

St Leo, I don't know much about the Maori. Could you tell us something about them?

[orange]

Originally posted by Ribannah
1570 and fell apart in several steps. Whether a claim can be made for an Iroquois civilization to still exist today, depends on the definition.

The same length of time as the Americans...if not less...considering the Iroquois were non existant as an independent self governing group of people by 1800.