The Iroquois Debate: Lets clean up the mess we've created.

[monkspider]

I applaud your Democratic voting tendencies Orange
But if there is an organized debate, count me in the pro-Iroquois party. I feel I may be able to make a pretty sound case for their inclusion.
I also applaud Boris' effort to raise this debate above the petty acrimony that has taken over some of the later posts in this thread.

[orange]

Originally posted by monkspider
I applaud your Democratic voting tendencies Orange
But if there is an organized debate, count me in the pro-Iroquois party. I feel I may be able to make a pretty sound case for their inclusion.
I also applaud Boris' effort to raise this debate above the petty acrimony that has taken over some of the later posts in this thread.

Thank you. I'm not as far left as some of the (forgive me for stealing a Bob Dornon term) "Euro-commies" on the OT, but I'm quite the leftist

Trust me, I didn't intend for this thread to become a wash. But look what Ribannah is giving me to refute? I know there's valid arguments to be made, it's just no one is making them

[Ubik]

No one?

PS Quite a debate there, Orange and Boris. I enjoyed every single word of it

[Ubik]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Actually, my point was that there are currently 3 Western European cultures in the game (4 if you count the Americans as such, which essentially it is), and 2 Southern European civs, and the Russians are an Eastern European Civ, giving a total of 6 civs out of 16 from Europe. While that may reflect Europe's dominant role in shaping world history, I think it is a little TOO Europe-heavy. Of the European cultures given, I can only imagine dropping the French.

Yes, I know they were very important, but when compared to the contributions of the other European civs, I think they are the most expendable.

Cheers.

Not really IMHO. Based on the following:

- The French are going pretty back to time as an organized kingdom.

- The ethnic groups that formed the people called French today, are of the highest significance: Franks, Normands, Roman, Gauls, other Germanic tribes

- The French civilization in it's time span is one of the more interesting in any term

- They have given us great cultural achievements, they were allways in the front line of every great cultural movement etc.

- How many painters/sculptureres/film directors/poets/writers can you name off your head? I bet half of them are French

- France dominated Europe both culturaly and economicaly for centuries and also was a great power worldwide (colonies).

- The French Revolution and the ideas it was based upon (the French enlightment) are still the foundation of the western democracies, among the democratic principles of the Greek (Athenian, actually) democracy


...you need more? I don't think Spanish, German, English or any other Euro civ can get close to that. Nor does any other civ, IMHO.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ubik

- The French are going pretty back to time as an organized kingdom.

Well, the point that delineates a specific French Kingdom, as opposed to a Germanic (Frankish) one, is pretty far back. But others lasted longer and go back further. The English Kingdom is older. But that doesn't mean much to me in terms of impact.

- The ethnic groups that formed the people called French today, are of the highest significance: Franks, Normands, Roman, Gauls, other Germanic tribes

"Germanic tribes..."

- The French civilization in it's time span is one of the more interesting in any term

Pure opinion, and I agree it was interesting, but so were most civs when in their height. I find Russia and China's more interesting, personally, but who is to say whose opinion is better?

They have given us great cultural achievements, they were allways in the front line of every great cultural movement etc

Every movement? What about the Reformation? The Renaissance? Yes, there are great French achievements, but not any more than I see from other civs.

How many painters/sculptureres/film directors/poets/writers can you name off your head? I bet half of them are French

Painters: Vastly Italian (Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Raffaelle, Donatello...wait, are these painters or mutant ninja turtles?)
Sculpturers: Again, vastly Italian
Film Directors: Mostly American and Italian for me. And Kirosawa!
Poets: English dominate my knowledge
Writers: Well, Victor Hugo IS one of my favorites. And must give credit to Rousseau and Voltaire.

Yes, they contributed to these fields, but I can't reasonably say theirs was the greatest contribution. Of course, all of the above is perspective.

You left out music, which is easily dominated by the Germans and less so by the Italians!

France dominated Europe both culturaly and economicaly for centuries and also was a great power worldwide (colonies).

Yup. So did other civs. French had their turn in the spotlight.

The French Revolution and the ideas it was based upon (the French enlightment) are still the foundation of the western democracies, among the democratic principles of the Greek (Athenian, actually) democracy

Single most important French contribution to the world, yes. Although I would stress western EUROPEAN democracies, as the United States, while drawing greatly from French ideas, is still strongly rooted in Anglo-Saxon government, law and tradition.

...you need more? I don't think Spanish, German, English or any other Euro civ can get close to that. Nor does any other civ, IMHO.

I guess I do, because not only do I think other Euro civs "get close" to that, I think that ultimately the English and Germans surpass it. But that's largely opinion, like yours is.

Cheers.

[Ubik]

The Franks are a germanic tribe, silly

As to the rest... frankly, yes, it is solely a matter of opinion. And you should take into account that I am a great admirer of the German culture - and still think the Frenchies did more.

But, again, opinions are like arseholes - everybody's got one - as dirty Harry used to say. And entitled to it, I'd add myself

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Waku in "The most glaring omission..." thread
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean,
Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...
since you weren't able to refute it

Since I have no idea what you mean by "taught" - did they make a scientific breakthrough? - it's a tall order to refute it. We mentioned the Chinese journeys and theirs and the Portuguese navigation advances at the time, but maybe you could elaborate if that wasn't enough.

About the slave traffic on the Atlantic; back in August, while you were dreaming about Teletubbies, I posted the following:

http://www.boondocksnet.com/editions/morel/morel03.html

"The part of the Treaty which gave "unqualified and unanimous satisfaction at home" was the "Assiento" compact, whereby England secured from Philip, in accordance with the practice of the Spanish Sovereigns referred to above, an "absolute monopoly of the supply of slaves to the Spanish Colonies." The monopoly was conferred by the British Government upon the South Sea Company. The "immense amount of guilty wealth acquired through the 'Assiento' Treaty did much to compensate for the great pecuniary sacrifices of the war." The generation which concluded it came to regard the "extension of the slave trade as a capital object of English commercial policy," and it became the "main object" of national policy to "encourage the kidnaping of tens of thousands of negroes and their consignment to the most miserable slavery." In fact the Peace which brought a precarious and short-lived truce to Europe, brought war, war of the most atrocious and desolating character, and on a scale until then unimagined, to Africa, and "made of England the great slave trader of the world."

So you see, there is to reason to single out the Dutch.

[Ribannah]

Boris, so far we have for the suggested 'civilized' Iroquois debate:

Pro: Monkspider, Ribannah
Contra: -

Taptaptaptap ....

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

[Waku]

Originally posted by Ribannah
did they make a scientific breakthrough?

Check your nautical vocabulary, Ribanita.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Since I have no idea what you mean by "taught" -
while you were dreaming about Teletubbies, I posted the following:

Seems you still need to watch some episodes to start learning. And it's a very pleasant dream compared to your Duke of Alba nightmares.

Originally posted by Ribannah
About the slave traffic on the Atlantic;
there is to reason to single out the Dutch.

English followed the example of Dutch traders: ever heard of the The Dutch Triangle ?

[Ribannah]

Waku on August 19:

Teletubbies, snorkles and the seven dwarves should be in

I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

[orange]

Ribannah - the only thing pointed out about the Chinese "voyages" is that they were mainly coastal trips and NOT worthy of being considered 'great'. Quit plugging them.

We already have a debate, quit trying to make a new one up. If you have something of substance to post, post it. I don't need to "sign up" on the negative side, you'll feel my presence as you have in the past...believe me.

[Waku]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Waku on August 19:
I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

I feel so sorry you can't understand an irony

you'll need to read some previous posts to understand that "if it's only a game" and for the "sake of fun" Firaxis should have included them instead of French, Americans or Iroquois

[orange]

LOVE TINKYWINKY!! LOVE TINKYWINKY!!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ubik
The Franks are a germanic tribe, silly

Oh believe me, I know that! I was just making a slight comment on the roots of the French being German.

Come to think of it, I can use Ribannah's reasoning from the first Iroquois debate and say that since the French are derived from the Germans, they're really just the same civilization anyway.

And you should take into account that I am a great admirer of the German culture

And I am a great admirer of French culture. My favorite book is Les Miserables, Bizet and Debussy are up there for me in terms of composers, and I love the "Le Poisson" guy from The Little Mermaid.

Boris, so far we have for the suggested 'civilized' Iroquois debate:

I discarded this idea in my second post on the subject. But if you want to create it OT, feel free.

English followed the example of Dutch traders: ever heard of the The Dutch Triangle ?

Interesting source, but I agree with Ribannah that we can't single out the Dutch more than anyone else. If it was either ferrying the slaves or actually using them, all the colonial European powers have bloody hands, as do the Africans who participated.

Ribannah - the only thing pointed out about the Chinese "voyages" is that they were mainly coastal trips and NOT worthy of being considered 'great'.

Agreed re: coastal trips, BUT I have to say, the technological feat of the ship itself is impressive. The sheer size of that boat made it something unique for the time.

LOVE TINKYWINKY!! LOVE TINKYWINKY!!

Careful! Jerry Fallwell might be monitoring this board.

[orange]

The sheer size of that boat made it something unique for the time.

yup, no denying that.