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By page 5, most of us don't know who is arguing for what, or what people have said, and it's become a rather confusing and messy debate. So, I took a few minutes to pull out as many quotes pertaining to the topic and nothing else, backed up by strong opinion and fact, and organize them into sections. This way, everyone knows what people have said, and why they feel the way they do. It might be easier to continue the debate here, especially because that thread was originally brought up about Arabs not being included in Civ III.
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1) Does the Iroquois Nation deserve a spot in Civ III
a) Can Iroquois culture be considered "great" enough to be included in Civ III (16 civs)
Chris62
Jay Bee
orange
static
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b) Comparison of Iroquois to Cro-Magnon man
Chris62
Boris
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c) Which Civ better desreves to be in Civ III, the Spanish or Iroquois?
orange
Rib
static
KrazyHorse
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2) Were the Iroquois added to the game for political correctness and multiculturalism?
Chris62
Boris
Guy
Ubik
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Ok...those are the major points made in the debate, at least in that one thread. If you have things to add now, or rebut, please do so using this material only, and anything introduced in this thread. If you think I missed a major point that you or someone else made in the other thread, post it and I'll put it up there. But it has to be strong opinion or something backed up with facts, and it must pertain to the 4 points in question.
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1) Does the Iroquois Nation deserve a spot in Civ III
a) Can Iroquois culture be considered "great" enough to be included in Civ III (16 civs)
Chris62
The truth is, American cultures, while interesting to read and study, were not significant to history, and cannot be considered great.
The same is true of Meso-American (Although far more advanced), still can't be considered great.
Worthy of inclusion in a game about great civilizations? Absoulty not.
The same is true of Meso-American (Although far more advanced), still can't be considered great.
Worthy of inclusion in a game about great civilizations? Absoulty not.
Jay Bee
Chris may have exaggerated a bit to get his point straight, but he's right in the end. The Iroquois, like all other Native American tribes, were hundreds of years behind the Europeans at the time of their encounter. That's an undisputed fact and that's what Chris meant to say.
In the overall scheme of human existance, Native North American tribes such as the Iroquois play a minimal role...and that is dominated by their place in European based wars, like the seven years war, or the American revolution.
Guy - While you haven't changed my opinion of the Iroqoius being in the game, you have IMO given a great reason to why the Inca, Maya, and Aztec should be in the game (well, Aztec already are...but...)
I don't think the Iroquois should be, because I don't think they were as advanced as the southern, more dominant tribes as before mentioned were. The population of the Iroquois and their range of influence was not great enough to be seen as a dominant civ. Not many Native North American tribes could have, except maybe the Sioux. The numbers and influence was simply never great enough. Too many warring independant tribes...
I don't think the Iroquois should be, because I don't think they were as advanced as the southern, more dominant tribes as before mentioned were. The population of the Iroquois and their range of influence was not great enough to be seen as a dominant civ. Not many Native North American tribes could have, except maybe the Sioux. The numbers and influence was simply never great enough. Too many warring independant tribes...
I don't think I'm backing up what Chris is saying. He's making assertions that the Iroquois were only the equal of Cro-Magnon man, and that they were the aggressors to the Europeans. I just find his comments really misguided and uninformed. I think people need to keep in mind the the Iroquois were the dominant Civ in Native America, and were significant for centuries. Just because they weren't huge in European history, doesn't mean they weren't important in World history.
b) Comparison of Iroquois to Cro-Magnon man
Chris62
Perhaps they will tell you that American indian culture is akin to Cro-Magon man before the coming of Europeans, and are only included in the game as a poltically correct choice.
Did they have:
Permanent settlements?
Yes, rudimentuary, usually log huts, arranged in circular fashion
(Stone-age man equivilent were found in Turkey, that date back to 10,000 BC)
Written language?
No, relied on oral tradition, recorded matters on "wampum" (explained in the links)
Leagal code?
Again, only traditions, as they had no written language.
Agriculture?
Yes, were famers.
Education?
None, outside of passing of traditions.
Did they live peacefully?
No, not at all.
Religion?
Believe in a number of spirts and superstions reguarding a large number of things in the world around them.
Science?
None.
Metalurgy?
No
In fact, all of their moments in history come after contact with the Europeans.
Cro-Magnon man:
Permanent settlements?
None,as such, were just begining to go from hunter-gatherer to farmer.
Written language?
None, oral only.
Leagal code?
None.
Agriculture?
Ruidmentuary, at very beginings of understanding.
Education?
None, really.
Did they live peacefully?
Not really.
Religion?
Similar to our Iroquois friends.
Science?
None.
Metalurgy?
Rudimentuary.
See the similarity?
Permanent settlements?
Yes, rudimentuary, usually log huts, arranged in circular fashion
(Stone-age man equivilent were found in Turkey, that date back to 10,000 BC)
Written language?
No, relied on oral tradition, recorded matters on "wampum" (explained in the links)
Leagal code?
Again, only traditions, as they had no written language.
Agriculture?
Yes, were famers.
Education?
None, outside of passing of traditions.
Did they live peacefully?
No, not at all.
Religion?
Believe in a number of spirts and superstions reguarding a large number of things in the world around them.
Science?
None.
Metalurgy?
No
In fact, all of their moments in history come after contact with the Europeans.
Cro-Magnon man:
Permanent settlements?
None,as such, were just begining to go from hunter-gatherer to farmer.
Written language?
None, oral only.
Leagal code?
None.
Agriculture?
Ruidmentuary, at very beginings of understanding.
Education?
None, really.
Did they live peacefully?
Not really.
Religion?
Similar to our Iroquois friends.
Science?
None.
Metalurgy?
Rudimentuary.
See the similarity?
...what I was attempting to point out was that they (the Iroquois) were not advanced at all, and in fact, had reached a "status-quo" as a society, but stopped growing and advancing as a people.
Other parts of the world have moved on, they had not.
Other parts of the world have moved on, they had not.
I have to disagree with comparing the Iroquois to Cro-Magnon man in Europe. There was a level of sophistication to Iroquois culture that far surpassed this. While I don't agree with their inclusion, I would not go so far as saying this.
First, the links you provided, while by no means placing the Iroquois on a level of "Great Civilization," also do not support your thesis of equating them to Cro-Magnon man. Your comparison is quite dubious, because you say the Iroquois recorded things via wampum. This in itself shows a sophistication (while not comparable to our written language) of record-keeping that eluded Cro-Magnon. You say the Iroquois had no legal code, but they had an eloborate constitution (which you can read for yourself here: <http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/iroquois.html>
The level of cultural complexity spelled out in this document far surpasses anything we know about Cro-Magnon many times over. As for science, don't forget that the Iroquois did have an inventive agriculture system, again far more complex than anything known to be Cro-Magnon. And you can't say Cro-Magnon had no legal code or education or science, as we don't know since there are no written records.
The level of cultural complexity spelled out in this document far surpasses anything we know about Cro-Magnon many times over. As for science, don't forget that the Iroquois did have an inventive agriculture system, again far more complex than anything known to be Cro-Magnon. And you can't say Cro-Magnon had no legal code or education or science, as we don't know since there are no written records.
c) Which Civ better desreves to be in Civ III, the Spanish or Iroquois?
orange
I think comparing them to Cro-Magnon man is wrong, but it's a lot closer than saying that they rival the Spanish or any Euro civ in world impact. The Iroquois are a dominant civ in Native America, you're right. But as I said before, overall, when compared with all other civs, they are insignifigant. 16 spots and the Iroquois make it, but the Spanish don't? That to me, is a bit hard to swallow.
1c)
Technology Spanish, obviously (2:0)
Architecture I would pick construction but the conclusion is the same:
Spanish win easily (they had mills ) (2:0)
Economics Since the Spanish weren't able to feed themselves (which practically drove them to plunder and oppression) and the Iroquois thrived on their trade, an easy victory for the Iroquois (0:2)
Size In absolute terms: Spanish, relative to population: Iroquois (1:1)
Military On par, they were both master in their golden age / region (1:1)
Artistry Spanish win (2:1)
Social Iroquois have my vote (1:2)
Political Easy victory for the Iroquois (0:2)
So by this measurement they come out equal (10:10). Who would have thought!
But, and this is the point I am trying to get across, these are your criteria. You don't take into account that about everything the Spanish had, they learned from others, while the Iroquois made major progress all by themselves in several fields, and hand-in-hand with their rivals in others. As I consider that very important, for me there is no contest: I pick the Iroquois from the north-Amerind tribes any day, but many European tribes ahead of the Spanish.
Technology Spanish, obviously (2:0)
Architecture I would pick construction but the conclusion is the same:
Spanish win easily (they had mills ) (2:0)
Economics Since the Spanish weren't able to feed themselves (which practically drove them to plunder and oppression) and the Iroquois thrived on their trade, an easy victory for the Iroquois (0:2)
Size In absolute terms: Spanish, relative to population: Iroquois (1:1)
Military On par, they were both master in their golden age / region (1:1)
Artistry Spanish win (2:1)
Social Iroquois have my vote (1:2)
Political Easy victory for the Iroquois (0:2)
So by this measurement they come out equal (10:10). Who would have thought!
But, and this is the point I am trying to get across, these are your criteria. You don't take into account that about everything the Spanish had, they learned from others, while the Iroquois made major progress all by themselves in several fields, and hand-in-hand with their rivals in others. As I consider that very important, for me there is no contest: I pick the Iroquois from the north-Amerind tribes any day, but many European tribes ahead of the Spanish.
I put the Spanish in my top 10 Civs (Romans, British, Chinese, Egyptian, American,French, Spanish, Greek, Russian, Ottoman Empire) IMHO, and definantly think they should be included, however I also put the Maya and Iroquois in my top 25 and feel they also have a legitimate claim to be included. I think its a toss up from 11-25, and no matter who was chosen in the top 16 it would have been controversial.
I will definantly agree that the Spanish should be in ahead of Iroquis, I can't understand how they could be left out. But the Iroquis influence was much greater than many Euro, Asian, African Civs, they would be in my Top 25. After the Top 10 Civs, IMHO(Romans, British, Chinese, Egyptian, American,French, Spanish, Greek, Russian, Ottoman Empire) its kinda a toss-up for the next 15, so picking only 16 Civs is ALWAYS going to a controversial process.
KrazyHorse
Judge a civ on the following:
Technology
Architecture
Economics
Size
Military
Artistry
Social
Political
Tech, Architecture, Economics, Size and Military, the Spain of 1700 and the Iroquois Nations of 1700 are in different worlds (I set you up last time, but don't try to twist: Spain>Iroquois).
Now: Artistic, Social, Political
Politically, the Iroquois seem to be more advanced. Though not as democratic as, say, the English, they were more so than the Spanish Empire.
Socially, it's hard to compare. Given the disparate levels of the economies of both entities (one is highly developed and specialised, the other is subsistence-level), such terms as "equality", etc. become fairly meaningless. The Iroquois lived more equally than the Spanish did for the simple reason that their economic system couldn't support inequality.
Artistically is going to be the one where you and I probably disagree, but I'll step out on a limb and say that Spain had a more sophisticated and developed level of art than the Iroquois did. Either way, add up the score, and see what you get.
Judge a civ on the following:
Technology
Architecture
Economics
Size
Military
Artistry
Social
Political
Tech, Architecture, Economics, Size and Military, the Spain of 1700 and the Iroquois Nations of 1700 are in different worlds (I set you up last time, but don't try to twist: Spain>Iroquois).
Now: Artistic, Social, Political
Politically, the Iroquois seem to be more advanced. Though not as democratic as, say, the English, they were more so than the Spanish Empire.
Socially, it's hard to compare. Given the disparate levels of the economies of both entities (one is highly developed and specialised, the other is subsistence-level), such terms as "equality", etc. become fairly meaningless. The Iroquois lived more equally than the Spanish did for the simple reason that their economic system couldn't support inequality.
Artistically is going to be the one where you and I probably disagree, but I'll step out on a limb and say that Spain had a more sophisticated and developed level of art than the Iroquois did. Either way, add up the score, and see what you get.
2) Were the Iroquois added to the game for political correctness and multiculturalism?
Chris62
You are all guilty of being politically correct, when you assert the the six nations were a "great civilization".
In the modern world, we now have a tendancy to view history through rose colored glasses in reguards to native american cultures.
The fact is, and always was, these primative societies were on subsistance survival level (which is why there was so few of them in the Americas to start with), and were accustomed to taking what they wanted from others by force as the first option (read the links if you disagree).
They had the monumental misfortune of meeting a people (the Europeans) whom would also take what they wanted, and were better at it, but would have lived peacably if not continually attacked (Native custom, for the Six Nations, the yearly tribal raid on neigbhors).
Over time, as the Europeans multiplied, they would become cronic aggressors, and constant treaty breakers, but the fact is, the natives began this pattern, having "sowed the wind, they were forced to reap the whirlwind" so to speak.
We can't say that the europeans would have behaved any differently had the natives not continually attacked them, but we will never know that with any certaincy.
The Native Americans were a Politically Correct choice by Firaxis, and should not have been in the new game.
In the modern world, we now have a tendancy to view history through rose colored glasses in reguards to native american cultures.
The fact is, and always was, these primative societies were on subsistance survival level (which is why there was so few of them in the Americas to start with), and were accustomed to taking what they wanted from others by force as the first option (read the links if you disagree).
They had the monumental misfortune of meeting a people (the Europeans) whom would also take what they wanted, and were better at it, but would have lived peacably if not continually attacked (Native custom, for the Six Nations, the yearly tribal raid on neigbhors).
Over time, as the Europeans multiplied, they would become cronic aggressors, and constant treaty breakers, but the fact is, the natives began this pattern, having "sowed the wind, they were forced to reap the whirlwind" so to speak.
We can't say that the europeans would have behaved any differently had the natives not continually attacked them, but we will never know that with any certaincy.
The Native Americans were a Politically Correct choice by Firaxis, and should not have been in the new game.
While I have never asserted this, nor will, I don't think it's wise to presume the intentions of others or why they feel this way. Political correctness is a red-herring statement misused all over, so I wouldn't bandy it around here. It's a label meant to infer illegitimacy on the in-depth consideration of previously ignored or little-valued subjects. Most people who throw this label at people are doing so because they're afraid of having their assumptions and prejudices uprooted.
Also, I don't think that it is fair to say that the Iroquois are only in for PC reasons. If we are rewriting history, it seems fair to include representatives of a variety of different cultural groups--Asian, European, Classical, Ancient, North & South American. I can't think of a better choice for a North American civilization than the Iroquois. Strictly speaking, if you just wanted civilizations that dominated the world (or a large portion of it), you'd see a lot of Europe and very, very little else--maybe China and Japan. Again, we're trying to rewrite history; to that end, we need a variety of civilizations.
But, as for the Iroquis deal... well, because of the Iroqui confederation and their constitutional system it was considered the dominant (culturaly speaking) civ of North America.
Others know more than me about this and I should let them speak of, but this whole "let's have a civ from every corner of the world" exceeds the PCness of Firaxis. It is not about PCness, it is about cultural diversity...
Others know more than me about this and I should let them speak of, but this whole "let's have a civ from every corner of the world" exceeds the PCness of Firaxis. It is not about PCness, it is about cultural diversity...
Ok...those are the major points made in the debate, at least in that one thread. If you have things to add now, or rebut, please do so using this material only, and anything introduced in this thread. If you think I missed a major point that you or someone else made in the other thread, post it and I'll put it up there. But it has to be strong opinion or something backed up with facts, and it must pertain to the 4 points in question.
. Not many indeed.
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