Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack.

[OzzyKP]

Unfortunatly I don't have time to make a solid case for my heritage but I'll try to give a solid nudge.

The Hungarians don't get enough credit in history. The Magyars scoured France, they pilliaged Italy, they invaded Germany. Look in any maps from 1000 AD onward, the Hungarians often had the largest empire in Europe. At its peak Hungary (not Austro-Hungary) was as big as France and England. The rest of Europe better be damn glad Hungary fought off the Turks and stopped their spread. Downside is Hungary lost most of its kingdom to the Turks (my families castle included, grrr.)

Hungarians kick major ass throughout history, they revolted and won an equal split ruling the Austrian empire. They were one of the few countries under the Soviet Boot that attempted to revolt. And currently they are one of the fastest growing former Warsaw Pact countries. I could go on, but Hungary has been a major world power that I feel has been unduly neglected.

[OzzyKP]

Here is some more evidence to help my case:

Check out this map. Hungary is deffinatly one of the big players. This isn't a flash in the pan deal either, check out 1100 or 1200 or 1500 or whatever you wish. We had this period wrapped up. Don't forget the Austrian-HUNGARIAN empire either. The capitol was in Budapest.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Third subway system in the world was built in Budapest.

New York, London, Budapest. Oh yea...

Lets see a few Hungarians in my World Almanac who have enriched world culture and science:

Szilard- a guy who worked on the Manhattan Project
Von Neumann- originated game theory, basic design for modern computers
Ferenc Molnar- wrote Liliom, The Guardsman, The Swan
Bela Bartok- Concerto for Orchestra, The Miraculous Mandarin
Zoltan Kodaly- Hary Janos, Psalmus Hungaricus
Franz LISZT- 20 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Franz Lehar- Merry Widow

2 Hungarians won Nobel Prizes

I believe I have heard before that Hugarians invented the Helicopter, fountain pen, possibly computer among others.

And as for Olympics Hungarians are a force far exceeding the size and might of their nation right now. Compeating against huge powers like the USSR and USA, Hungary always places very respectibly. 12th overall in 1996 olympics.

Check out http://www.mit.edu/~elliot/olympics/results.html Hungary is 5th when total medals are scaled based on population.

Most telling of all is the ALL TIME OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT. From 1896 to 2000 ALL the nations and ALL the medals were tallied up and guess what? Hungary Placed EIGHTH. EIGHTH!!!! That's incredible with all the nations on this planet, Hungary placed 8th!


1. USA 871 659 586 2116
2. USSR (1952-88) 395 319 296 1010
3. Great Britain 180 233 225 638
4. France 188 193 217 598
5. Italy 179 143 157 479
6. Sweden 136 156 177 469
7. East Germany (1968-88) 159 150 136 445
8. Hungary 150 135 158 443
9. Germany (1896-64,92-) 138 138 160 436
10. Australia 102 110 138 350
11. West Germany (1968-88) 77 104 120 301
12. Finland 101 81 114 296
13. Japan 97 97 102 296
14. Romania 74 83 108 265
15. Poland 56 72 113 241
16. Canada 51 81 98 230

http://www.olympicwebsite.com/medalcount.htm

Hungary is certainly deserving of a spot, so please give the Magyar/Hungarians your votes!!!!

[civcop]

Hungary?

I won't dispute some of what you wrote, but as for the Olypmics, I distrust any country that was a vassal state of the Communist USSR in the Olympics. Their athletes were more juiced up than Minute Maid. You also forgot to add the two largest influences of Hungary upon American culture: the Gabor sisters. Ava and Zsa Zsa "Cop Slapper" Gabor.

[orange]

Olympic medals are all well and good, but hardly a reason for justifiying a civilization.

However, if the mongols are in, I don't see why the huns should not be either. But that should be IT for central asian tribes. The ancient huns didn't build cities, really...until settling in present day Hungary of course

[Ubik]

Excuse me, but I was (and still am) under the impression that the Huns are not the ancestors of modern Hungarian. The Magyar are a completely different tribe than the Huns...


....oh, anyway... on with the "Why the XXXX should be in Civ expansion pack" threads... I am going to make one of my own... soon...

[OzzyKP]

Yea, the Huns really don't have anything to do with Hungary, people just mistakenly grouped the Magyars with the Huns.

Perhaps I put too much in there on the Olympics but Hungary is a great nation and people for many reasons. Look at the map I put a link for, from about 1000 till 1500 or 1600 Hungary was one of the largest nations in Europe. As big and as powerful as France or England. The Hungarians were a big player in the Crusades too, I'm not sure but I think they had their own crusade in addition to participating in the others.

Then the Ottoman empire pushed into Europe and while the rest of the continent was minding their own business the feared Magyar troops were fighting back the Turks. Who knows, if the Hungarians hadn't slowed them down and fought them off Europe may have been Muslim now. While France and England were sitting pretty Hungary was saving their asses and loosing all its power in the process.

Of course after decades of fighting off the Turks Hungary was mostly carved up and weakened so the previously weak Austrians were able to get control over Hungary. This lasted for a bit but then the proud Hungarians revolted and demanded an equal say and rather than fight a civil war the Austrians gave in and we got the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Heck even while under the Soviet boot the Hungarians fought back and had a revolution against the communists.

So think very successful and feared barbaric tribes that attacked and pilliaged all of Europe who didn't just fade away and die out like the Mongols or Huns, the Magyars created a very powerful kingdom and are still around 1500 years later. MUCH more of a world player than the Celts or Huns or Carthaginians or any other contenders are.

Atilla the Hun just had a better PR agent, he paled compared to the long lasting effect of the Magyars/Hungarians.

[Ribannah]

Look at the Roman Empire on that map!
And hey, lets not forget Semmelweis, he has no less than 3 streets named after him in Budapest alone!

[orange]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Yea, the Huns really don't have anything to do with Hungary, people just mistakenly grouped the Magyars with the Huns.

Hence the wink

[Chris Edgemon]

I just wanted to mention that perhaps the most compelling reason to add the magyars is that they possess an almost unique linguistic group. It is a part of the Uralic family (i believe), the only two other at all significant memebers being finnish and estonian. Hungary may not have had a particularly sweeping effect on the history of humanity, but, if searching for a unique culture, part of both central asia and europe (and someone to put below the russians) the magyars are certainly an excellent choice. So come on.

[Mihai]

OzzyKP - Please don't take it personally but I heard enough about "We stopped the turks while the Occident built cathedrals" from romanians historians.

Hungary played an important role in history, but in the game are just 16 (?) civs and not in the order of importance in history.

There are a lot of african and asian civs not included.

This is just a game

[Mihai]

More maps!

OzzyKP - that link you gave is great! A lot of historical maps! If you can give me more links like that I would apreciate.

As a side note I always wander how cam the Dacs Kingdom has the same size and shape like the Roman Dacia. I mean the legions conquered the country and stoped at the border?

[MagyarCrusader]

Got the PM

Ozzy did a nice job of a brief summary. I've got a good page for famous Hungarians:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat/famous.htm

The ones that would probably relate to civ3 most are the military and scientific ones:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat/businesspoliticsandmilitary.htm

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat/sciencemathandtech.htm

Some famous military magyars-
János Hunyadi- prehaps the best Medeival tactician europe ever saw. Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle? Siege of Belgrade. Catholic Church bells around the world have forever since rang at noon to celebrate this victory!

Col. Michael de Kováts - Father of the US Cavalry

Matthias Corvinus- The "Renaissance" King. Conquered the Holy Roman Empire, outstanding statesman and patron of the arts. He spread the Renassiance to Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, central Hungary was conquered 30 years after his death.

And of course there are Attila, Arpad, and St Stephen. And the all famous Hussar unit? The Hussars were the most effective cavalry unit the world saw during the age of the rifle.

You could even throw Hungary into the game for politically correct reasons. Hungarians proportionally are the largest minority in europe. Only 2/3 of Hungarians live in the present day political borders of Hungary. Solid Hungary communities still exist in Transylvania (which compirses more than half of modern Romania), Slovakia, and Vojvodina, despite 80 years of unchecked ethnic cleansing! (If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land).

Hungary has been one of the most important influences in the Balkans, which even to this day is one of europe's most critical points. And now that Hungary is part of NATO and has millions of Hungarians living abroad in the most unfriendly region in the world for minorities, it's role in the future will be very important.

To Mihai, who I am certain will take offense to this post (don't blame him, he lives in the Balkans)

Please don't take it personally but I heard enough about "We stopped the turks while the Occident built cathedrals" from romanians historians.

Romanians say many things, like for example, they have more linkage to Rome than Italians themselves, or the French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name. Archeological evidence shows the Vlachs in the souther Balkans around Greece and Albania before 1000AD but that isn't important to you either. Archeological/historical evidence shows major Vlach migrations into Transylvania during the 14th, 15th centuries to avoid the Ottomans, and of course the 20th century for your crusade against the "mongols". My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war... Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Got the PM
Some famous military magyars-
János Hunyadi- prehaps the best Medeival tactician europe ever saw. Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle?

Blas de Lezo and 400 Spaniards defeated 6000 Englishmen when the latter attaked Cartagena de Indias, the main Spanish port in the Caribbean. It was 1741 I believe. (Jenkins' Ear War).

(I was just teasing you. Hunyadi was a brave man and deserves all credit)

[MagyarCrusader]

Blas de Lezo and 400 Spaniards defeated 6000 Englishmen when the latter attaked Cartagena de Indias, the main Spanish port in the Caribbean. It was 1741 I believe. (Jenkins' Ear War).

Well, thats' because Lezo was fighting against the English. j/k

There were other incredible battle fought by the Hungarians against Turks during the occupation. Like the first Siege of Eger. Or the Battle/Siege of Koszeg, Hungarian army of 1000 peasants held out a month against the Ottoman's force around 100,000 heading towards Vienna, forcing the Sultan to abandon his campaign to take Vienna, sometime around 1530. Although the senior officer there wasn't Hunyadi, it was some Captain from Croatia.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
To Mihai, who I am certain will take offense to this post (don't blame him, he lives in the Balkans)

I don't offend too easy, I just don't like fanatics (romanians, hungarians, jews, arabs, americans or whatever). I am afraid that you are a little to extremist regarding history.

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land.

I don't intended to say that everything I said is pure true, I might be wrong. But you can be sure that in case I am wrong is because I am misinformed and not because I am 'blind' to reason.
Just one example : János Hunyadi (hungarian sp/Iancu de Hunedoara - romanian sp) and Matthias Corvinus (hungarian sp/Matei Corvinul - romanian sp). Romanians historians considers them as romanians and they are reprezented as such in our history books. Personally I think that even they might be of romanian origin, they are more liked to hungarian history. I am not sure about Iancu de Hunedoara but certanly Matias didn't consider himself romanian.

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name.

This is the fanatism I was talking about. Ovious you don't know latin at all : transylvania = trans + silva = over the forest

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Archeological evidence shows the Vlachs in the souther Balkans around Greece and Albania before 1000AD but that isn't important to you either. Archeological/historical evidence shows major Vlach migrations into Transylvania during the 14th, 15th centuries to avoid the Ottomans, and of course the 20th century for your crusade against the "mongols".

As I said with other occasion too, I just don't belive in the theory of completly emply teritory. Not even Sahara isn't empty of population.

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war...

So you understand how vlachs felt when hungarians came in IX century

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval.

If you think that NATO will support a war between Romania and Hungary, man you are really gone away!

If you want to continue this part of discusion I suggest to stard a thread on OT. It really has little to do with Civ3.
I just couldn't help myself not to reply