Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack.

[Victor Galis]

"I'd love to! But as long as lies and hatred are directed towards my kindred I cannot refrain from posting."

-Well, I suppose we'll be at this for a long time, because I can no less stop defending my nation's honor than you can.

"country until Victor comes in here with his insults lies and terror."

-Check page 1, you came here before me. Perhaps, this shows how trustworthy you are.

"Just look at the tone of his first post! Unfortunately with the situation, you can't expect anything more out of him or any "Romanian"."

-I was called here, because you were here. I normally don't read this forum. (But hey, now my post count is going up).

"Victor I must congragulate you. You truly are intelligent and willy, a master at misconstruing facts. Goebbles would truly be proud."

-Thank you, now if only I were so good at these aspects of Diplomacy...

"Of course the testimonials are going to be Hungarian, since its the Hungarians are suffering!"

-Right, but can't you get a 3rd party source for the testimonials? (i.e. testimonial printed by somebody in the west?)

"You did the same thing in Southern Transylvania during the war. The difference is our mistakes were a reaction of what you've been duing for the 20 previous years, and continued to do up until the fall of communism. We are sorry for our mistakes, but Romania is not. Look, you are just as bad as a holocaust denier!"

-It's interesting how many living Romanian jews there are in Israel and how few Hungarian ones there are...

"In America that's called the "closepin vote". Think about it"

-Right, but you accuse them of being nationalists. UDMR didn't have to endorse either of them. It's votes weren't needed for a majority there.

"Wrong! You can look at the Hungarian constitution yourself (oh I'm sorry, that's a biased source right?). Then again, Romanians have no use for truth and facts."

-Link?

"You don't see the French, Spanish or Portuguese claiming to be Roman do you? They speak Romance languages."

-Right, but no one denies their Roman ancestry.

"I have heard there were only 6 Dacian words in the Romanian vocabulary."

-Let me guess, you heard from a Hungarian who loves his country as much as you do?

"Dacians were only under Roman rule for about 100 years and they fought several revolutions against Rome. One general called the Dacians fierce warrios that would never capitulate. After Rome, the Goths moved in and pillaged the land. Right after that it was the Huns. After that the Bulgars. After that the Avars. How does an entire culture get born in an environment like that?"

-Not capitulating.

"But Victor, understand this. I am not saying that Romanians have no right to live in Transylvania. You have as much right as us or anyone else."

-Good now that is settled, get over Triannon.

"I disagree with Romania using a myth as a tool to justify their attacks on the Hungarian people."

-If by attacks on the Hungarian people you mean providing Hungarian language schools and signs... (hey there was one guy who claimed that was an attack designed to make them totally unable to function in Romanian society.)

You still haven't answered my earlier question: When was the last time you were in Romania? Hungary? Transilvania?

"The only secure protection Hungarians in Transylvania have is if they are governed by Budapest."

-You would preffer the nationalists in power in Bucharest and a full-scale invasion of Hungary? Because that's what would happen if we lost Transilvania.

[MagyarCrusader]

The meat of your posts has all but dropped to the bone, so'll I'll just say this.

You would preffer the nationalists in power in Bucharest and a full-scale invasion of Hungary? Because that's what would happen if we lost Transilvania.

We've been waiting for our chance for a century, no Russians, no Germans no French. Bring it on.

[Victor Galis]

"We've been waiting for our chance for a century, no Russians, no Germans no French. Bring it on."

-A century? It hasn't been that long since 1919 Though I suppose we might have had a little help that time, and your Russian help didn't show up, but still, we're talking about a country attacking a neighbor 1/3 of its size, with no serious natural obstacles other than a pair of rivers.

[MagyarCrusader]

Over confidence, good! The Turks had greater odds in their favor, and eventually we ousted them. Now stop posting!

[Victor Galis]

"Over confidence, good! The Turks had greater odds in their favor, and eventually we ousted them."

-You mean the Russians did, don't you?

"Now stop posting!"

-I see you realized you were losing.

[MagyarCrusader]

Losing? We have nothing to lose and everything to gain! What have I lost from this argument? The only thing that has transpired here is I've prevented the uneducated from falling into your propaganda trap. Why don't you relax and go to a Romanian orphenage. We both know what your government allows to transpire there!

[Victor Galis]

I seen now that you have evaded certain questions several times:

First, you do not say the last time you were anywhere near Transilvania, leading me to believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

Second, you do not even attempt to deny that Marko Bella and his UDMR cronies are plotting with the government in Budapest against the territorial integrity of Romania.

You are the most bigotted person I have ever come accross, and I've been to some forums that... well... let us say that no sane person should frequent even as a source of amusement.

[MagyarCrusader]

I seen now that you have evaded certain questions several times:

"Why point out the speck in his eye when there is a plank in yours".
All you do is dismiss every fact as biased propaganda. People being rounded up and shot is not biased propaganda. I'm just sick of this debate that's why I don't respond in point. When I do that you just doublespeak even more, like a politician.

First, you do not say the last time you were anywhere near Transilvania, leading me to believe you have no clue what you are talking about.

Would it really matter if I've been to Hungary or Erdély before? Why can I not concern myself with human rights? Isn't that what the UN is all about? I have eyes that read, ears that listen, and an open mind that thinks. In fact, if I've never been to Hungary wouldn't that mean there should be no bias on my part? Answer that. You know, why don't you go to Transylvania and get the Magyar side of things? See how they feel. If everything you say is true, then we would have no need to argue. Obviuosly there is a reason for the great resentment towards Romania, and yet not towards Austria, Slovakia or Croatia.

It's irrelevant but since you care so much, it was 6 years ago. I have friends and family there. I will be back in the near future.

Second, you do not even attempt to deny that Marko Bella and his UDMR cronies are plotting with the government in Budapest against the territorial integrity of Romania.

In those words, no they are not plotting against the territorial integrity of Romania since it is a fictional country. Wallachia has nothing to worry about.

You are the most bigotted person I have ever come accross

If a bigot is someone who loves peace and human rights than I suppose I am. Although your use of the word bigot differs greatly from mine, I guess it can be excused since you seem to believe in fantasy as opposed to reality.

I've been to some forums that... well... let us say that no sane person should frequent even as a source of amusement.

Only sick individuals exploit the world's problems for entertainment. You have my pity.

[MagyarCrusader]

Some non Hungarian socurces though of course, many testimonials come from Hungarians.

"The Hungarians became second class citizens in Transylvania." The American Committee for the Rights of Religious Minorities reported: "The administrative oppression, the violent enforcing of the Rumanian language, the aggressive hostility... all these are aimed for the total destruction of the established school system. The laws of 1925 serve as oppressive political and nationalistic tools against the minorities. " (Religious Minorities in Transylvania, The Bacon Press, Boston, 1925).

The not quite forty year old Rumanian Kingdom across the Carpathians received Transylvania from the victorious Allied Forces as "booty" for turning against its former ally, the AustroÂHungarian Monarchy. The descendants of the Vlach immigrants and migrant workers, the Rumanians, became the masters, and the sufferings of the native Hungarians began.
Within two years all the cities, towns and villages in Transylvania were reÂnamed, including streets. A oneÂsided land reform was forced through which took the land from the Hungarians and handed it over to Rumanians. More than 200,000 Hungarian families, those of state, district, city and township officials, clerks and other public workers were evacuated and dumped across the new Hungarian border with nothing but a couple of suitcases. The use of the Hungarian language was abolished from all public places. All Hungarian publications, including literary magazines and books were placed under rigid censorship. Hugh SetonÂWatson wrote in his book "Eastern Europe Between the Wars" (Archon Books, 1962) on page 300Â301

Transylvania's largest HungarianÂlanguage newspaper, the Brassoi Lapok reported on December 14, 1925 from Csikjenofalva, a 100% Hungarian community, that "the new teacher sent by the government in his effort to enforce the new language regulations handed out such beatings to his pupils that on the first schoolÂday the parents had to carry home twentyÂfour badly beaten children who were unable to walk...," the editor of the paper was incarcerated for treason and the paper closed down for two months.

Axis powers ordered the return of Northern Transylvania to Hungary, reuniting 1,200,000 Hungarians with their Motherland, while still leaving about 600,000 under Rumanian domination. About 100,000 of these Hungarians became the victims of the angry and barbaric Rumanian retaliation between 1940 and 1945. In the fall of 1944, when the Rumanians returned into Northern Transylvania behind the advancing Russian army, another 100,000 Hungarians were exterminated, deported into deathÂcamps and the most deplorable terrorism took over.

Today, the number of the Hungarian minority is difficult to determine exactly, because Rumanian statistics consistently under report their number. A Rumanian author, living in the West. G. Satmarescu, writing in the East Central Europe (January 1975), edited by Professor FischerÂGalati of the University of Colorado, estimated the number of unreported Hungarians in Transylvania to 900,000, arriving at a find figure of 2.5 million. The Handbuch Europaischer Volksgruppen, published in 1974 by the European Union movement, estimated the number of Hungarians in Rumania to be 2.5 million. The Brazilian Transylvanian organization, Movimento pro Transylvania, using demographic constants of the overall population increase in Rumania and subtracting changes extraneous to the natural increase, arrived at an estimate of 2,816,555 million

The turning over of Northern Transylvania to the Rumanians in 1945 was done with the stipulation that Rumania "secure the rights of the nationalities." However, the "Nationality Statute" of February 5, 1945 was discarded after the 1947 peace treaties of Paris. In their Section
II. Political Clause, Art. 8, these treaties guaranteed equal rights to the inhabitants of Rumania without regard of race, language, religion or authenticity. (Based on these guarantees) as early as April 2, 1949, the United Kingdom and the United States filed a strong letter of protest with the Rumanian government for the violation of human rights.

ExÂCongressman Edward Koch made the following observation for the Congressional Record (1977): "I am distressed at reports that indicate that discrimination taints many aspects of life for the Hungarian speaking minority. Last year I was shown a copy of the Rumanian laws that now require a minimum of 25 students for any grade school class to be conducted in Hungarian, while only two students are required to form a class taught in Rumanian language."

The Rumanian demographer Satmarescu Âwho cannot be accused of harboring proÂHungarian and irredentist sentiments  comments (1975:426) on the poor quality of published demographic data on Transylvania, the "tendency to overestimate the Rumanian section of the population" and the "frequency with which the basic territorial units for demographic tabulation have been modified." On page 438 Mr. Satmarescu argues that "Whether or not it is a deliberate policy to reduce the strength of the Hungarian minority...there is evidence of administrative measures, such as the discriminatory allocation of housing units, which make it more difficult for rural Hungarians to move into the large urban centers than for their Rumanian counterparts." On page 536: "assuming that the Hungarian population (in Transylvania) of 1.7 million in 1910 had increased over the period 1910Â1966 at a.) the average rate observed in Transylvania, b.) the average rate observed in Rumania, c.) the average rate observed in Hungary, and d.) the average rate of natural increase observed in Hungary, and making allowance for emigration and reparations associated with the two world wars, suggests a minimum expected Hungarian population in 1966 of 2.0 million and a maximum of over 2.5 million."

According to available documented records, since 1944 more than 200,000 Hungarians have been exterminated by the Rumanians in deathÂcamps, prisons, police stations, village squares, streets, highways and railroad stations. Among them close to 800 clergymen, 687 educators, and more than 10,000 other intellectuals. During the years of 1981 and 1982 alone, we know of 198 cases where Hungarian educators, clergymen and simple workers, men and women, young and old, were beaten to death by the SECURITATE Âpolitical police  during the "interrogations" or became victims of "accidents", again by the hand of the Securitate. -Prof. Michael Sozan (Dept. of SociologyÂAnthropolgy, Slippery Rock State College)

Based on a politically motivated and completely false new history, the government of Communist Rumania declared Transylvania "the motherland of the Rumanian nation", claiming to be the descendants of the Daks and the Roman Legionaires stationed in the province of Dacia between 107 and 271 A.D. when Emperor Aurelianus withdrew the last remaining Legions from that province under strict order to destroy all buildings, supplies, and evacuate the land before the oncoming Goths. It is historically documented however, that the fierce Dak people were completely exterminated by the Legions between 107 and 117 A.D. and that the Legions occupying the province were the soÂcalled "Legions of the Barbarians", meaning army units recruited from the Northwestern territories of the Roman Empire, inhabited by Germanic tribes. -Prof. Michael Sozan (Dept. of SociologyÂAnthropolgy, Slippery Rock State College)

According to figures taken from the files of the Office of Statistics, Ministry of the Interior, Bucharest, Room 241C "Confidential Folio No. XXX2," out of the 2,898,356 Hungarians residing in Transylvania, Moldova, the city of Bucharest and the other Rumanian provinces in 1944, thirty years later, in 1974 there were only 2,217,897 listed on church rolls, party rolls and other administrative records. Of these Hungarians, 236,981 were born after 1945, leaving the number of "survivors" at 1,980,916. Taking into consideration those who were buried in the cemeteries during those thirty years between 1944 and 1974 Â a total of 194,562 Â we find a discrepancy of 722,878 Hungarians unaccounted for. Assuming that perhaps as many as 100,000 of them have left their homeland voluntarily, there are still 622,878 Hungarians missing.

In the first part of October 1944, a band of heavily armed Rumanian civilians under the leadership of Gavril Olteanu fell upon six Hungarian mountain villages in the "Szekelyland" and murdered every Hungarian man, woman and child they could find in those villages. Men were decapitated by the use of axes or impaled in front of their families, women and children tortured the most barbaric way. The "OlteanuÂunit" was finally arrested by Russian military authorities and handed over to the Rumanian police as common criminals. Most of the members of the group were released, while their leader, Gavril Olteanu, on the insistance of the Russians was sentenced by the Rumanian courts to four years in prison, of which he served two years. After his release he was treated as a "national hero" and received a comfortable government job as "hunting inspector".
The number of Hungarians killed by this unit is estimated between 2500 and 3000.

TWF, Geneva, Switzerland  A refugee from Sarmas, Transylvania, residing now in Switzerland, whose name cannot be made public for wellÂknown reasons, testified in front of a Geneva judge concerning the "Sarmas Massacre of October 1944. Here is part of his testimony:
"I was fourteen years of age when my entire family was killed. We lived in a town named Sarmas, in Transylvania, My father was a tinsmith. We were Hungarians. Sarmas was a Hungarian town..."
"The Rumanians came back on a Sunday. It was in midÂOctober. I don't know the date, but it was Sunday. My mother wanted us to go to church, but father said no, we better stay home. There may be some trouble, he said. We heard shots from the direction of Bald. Many shots. We saw some German trucks coming down the highway, rushing through the town and disappearing Northbound. I remember my father saying that the war was over..."
"Then we saw the Rumanian soldiers coming at us from everywhere. Along the highway, across the meadows, across the cornfields, and even from the hilltop they came, across the pastures. They were firing shots everywhere. I couldn't see any enemy in front of them, but they were still firing..."
"They chased the Hungarians out of their houses, and herded them down toward the marketÂplace, like sheep. We hid in the house, and locked the door, but they broke it down. Mother begged them to leave us alone but they kicked her in the belly. My father got mad and reached for the axe. One of the soldiers shot him, and he fell. Then we were chased out of the house, my mother, my grandmother and my five brothers and sisters. My youngest sister was only three, and she was holding onto mother's skirt, screaming. Mother was screaming too, and everybody else..."
"I fell into a ditch. The ditch was full of weeds and nobody could see me. I was just lying there in the weeds, I was trembling..."
"Then I heard the shots, down at the marketplace. Many shots. Screams and more shots. And then everything was quiet. I have never seen my family again. The soldiers ordered the rest of the Hungarians to dig a hugh hole in the Szasz cornfield and bury all the dead. There were 134 buried there, that day..."

October 1980
The Transylvanian Quarterly

In August 1980 two American citizens of Hungarian descent visited their birth places and relatives in Transylvania, Their names can not be made public for the protection of those relatives living under the Rumanian terrorÂregime. However, in case of a serious investigation they will be willing to step forward and be heard. Here are parts of their report:

"When we reached Kolozsvar, today called ClujÂNapoca, we could not believe our eyes. Entire sections of the city have disappeared since we were there for the last time, seven years ago. The beautiful old Kolozsmonostor no longer exists. It has been replaced by huge apartment houses. We could not find one single Hungarian family in those new buildings, only Rumanians who were brought there from old Rumania, across the mountains. We were told that all the Hungarian families who used to live in that section of the town, about six thousand people (among them our friends whom we planned to visit) were evacuated in May, and taken away. Nobody knows where. The Rumanian newcomers were settled there to work in the new industrial plants. Not a single Hungarian who lived there was given a job in these plants. The ancient Calvary church is also taken over by Rumanians. Behind the church, the old cemetery has disappeared. Even the old marble monuments which were built into the outside walls of the church back in the seventeenth century were torn off..."
"From the famous old Hostat there is only a short street left with eight houses. Seven years ago, at our last visit, there were still hundreds of Hungarian families living there, descendants of the ancient hajdus who were settled there in the fifteenth century to raise food for the fort. They were famous gardeners, who supplied the city of Kolozsvar with vegetables for centuries, even up to our days. Now they are gone. We were told that many of them committed suicide when they were evacuated."
"All the other sections of this beautiful old Hungarian city face the same future. It is only a question of time and Kolozsvar will not exist. It will be completely replaced by a new city with new settlers in it. Many of the Hungarians we visited there seven years ago took their own lives, due to desperation. They were thrown out of their homes without compensation, without jobs, without pensions, without a place to go...
"Seven years ago Kolozsvar was still the largest Hungarian city in Transylvania. Today there are only a few thousand Hungarians left. In May of this year alone thirty thousand Rumanians were brought into the city."
"As we traveled across Transylvania there was not a single place where we could use the Hungarian language without being exposed to rude scolding and cursing. SchoolÂchildren if caught speaking Hungarian among themselves on the playground receive twenty lashes from the teachers. Those standing in line for potatoes, bread or anything else, if heard by the food distributors whispering among themselves in Hungarian are chased away without a bite of food. The discrimination against Hungarians reached such proportions that Hitler's Germany was nothing compared to it..."
"Even the cemeteries are changed. When we tried to take flowers to a grave of someone beloved, we could not find the gravestones. All the old Hungarian gravestones were taken out. The graves of our mother and father, and those of our grandparents have disappeared completely.
NOT EVEN THE DEAD SEEM TO HAVE THE RIGHT TODAY IN TRANSYLVANIA TO REST IN A GRAVE WITH A HUNGARIAN NAME ON THE GRAVESTONE."
"We understand now Ceausescu"s threat that in ten years there will be no Hungarian problem in Transylvania. In our modern world, when 500 trucks can appear unexpectedly one morning on a city street and load up one thousand families within one hour, not ten but five years will suffice to erase the entire thousandÂyearÂold Hungarian culture from the face of the beautiful land, together with three million human beings, and nobody will even ask what happened to them..!"
"WE ARE LIVING INDEED IN A TERRIBLE WORLD AND A TERRIBLE AGE, IN WHICH THERE ARE PLENTY OF INSTITUTIONS TO CARE FOR "ENDANGERED SPECIES" IF THESE SPECIES ARE BIRDS OR ANIMALS, BUT FOR ENDANGERED HUMANS NOBODY SEEMS TO CARE..."

[Victor Galis]

"All you do is dismiss every fact as biased propaganda. People being rounded up and shot is not biased propaganda. I'm just sick of this debate that's why I don't respond in point. When I do that you just doublespeak even more, like a politician. "

-I brought up the points that were not related very directly to the rest of the debate. If you are sick, then go away.

"Would it really matter if I've been to Hungary or Erdély before?"

-I can tell you I was there just after Christmas, and several times in the last five years, and I saw none of the so called ethnic cleansing you say is going on.

"Why can I not concern myself with human rights? Isn't that what the UN is all about?"

-Who brought the UN into the discussion? You can concern yourself with human rights all you want, but I could using your methods, decide that the Sudanese are slaughtering Egyptians in northern Sudan, and make up as much evidence as you, without having ever been there, and without it being true (at least I hope it's not, I've never been south of Aswan.)

"In those words, no they are not plotting against the territorial integrity of Romania since it is a fictional country. Wallachia has nothing to worry about."

-My God, listen to him... I won't even dignify that with an answer.

"If a bigot is someone who loves peace and human rights than I suppose I am."

-No, a biggot believes his cause is just and that others are evil, and (insert your list of insults here).

"Although your use of the word bigot differs greatly from mine, I guess it can be excused since you seem to believe in fantasy as opposed to reality."

-I'm so glad your reality is based on what Hungarian authors tell you, because they're just such pinnacles of truth and light.

"I have eyes that read, ears that listen, and an open mind that thinks."

-And yet you limit yourself to your propaganda. I suppose if you've been shown nothing better, you would think you are reading and listening propperly.

"In fact, if I've never been to Hungary wouldn't that mean there should be no bias on my part? Answer that."

-No. One can still love a country one has never been to. I've been to Paris twice, I can still feel a need to defend France from Black Dragon in the OT forum when he attacks.

"You know, why don't you go to Transylvania and get the Magyar side of things? See how they feel."

-I've been to Transilvania many times in the last five years. I have no intrest in Magyar propaganda, I've talked to enough Hungarian people, not to need to hear what their leaders are saying.

"Obviuosly there is a reason for the great resentment towards Romania, and yet not towards Austria, Slovakia or Croatia."

-Because you can't justify stealing enough terriotry from those countries combined to match half of what you could steal out of Transilvania.

And you still fail to deny my point that Marko Bella and his cronies are plotting with the government in Budapest against Romania.

[MagyarCrusader]

And you evaded all the quotes I just posted and you still claim to be just, open minded, and above all, right. Go see a neurologist because something up there ain't functioning.

[Victor Galis]

"Some non Hungarian socurces though of course, many testimonials come from Hungarians."

-Finally


""The Hungarians became second class citizens in Transylvania." The American Committee for the Rights of Religious Minorities reported: "The administrative oppression, the violent enforcing of the Rumanian language, the aggressive hostility... all these are aimed for the total destruction of the established school system. The laws of 1925 serve as oppressive political and nationalistic tools against the minorities. " (Religious Minorities in Transylvania, The Bacon Press, Boston, 1925)."

-Yes, I admit we could have done better than that, but when your people are second class citizens for so long, revenge is the first thing on your mind, no? You can't run a country providing for education in minorty languages. You don't see the US offering schools in Spanish, do you?

"The not quite forty year old Rumanian Kingdom across the Carpathians received Transylvania from the victorious Allied Forces as "booty" for turning against its former ally, the AustroÂHungarian Monarchy. The descendants of the Vlach immigrants and migrant workers, the Rumanians, became the masters, and the sufferings of the native Hungarians began.
Within two years all the cities, towns and villages in Transylvania were reÂnamed, including streets. A oneÂsided land reform was forced through which took the land from the Hungarians and handed it over to Rumanians. More than 200,000 Hungarian families, those of state, district, city and township officials, clerks and other public workers were evacuated and dumped across the new Hungarian border with nothing but a couple of suitcases. The use of the Hungarian language was abolished from all public places. All Hungarian publications, including literary magazines and books were placed under rigid censorship. Hugh SetonÂWatson wrote in his book "Eastern Europe Between the Wars" (Archon Books, 1962) on page 300Â301"

-Oooh, someone listened to a lot of Hungarian stories. Aside from glaring inaccuracies (Romania allied with the Habsburg monarchy? That's rich. We were on the Russian side.) Land was redistributed to Romanian peasants... that's what happens when you abolish a foreign feudal system. It reffers to Romanians as immigrants, which is another blatant lie.

"Transylvania's largest HungarianÂlanguage newspaper, the Brassoi Lapok reported on December 14, 1925 from Csikjenofalva, a 100% Hungarian community, that "the new teacher sent by the government in his effort to enforce the new language regulations handed out such beatings to his pupils that on the first schoolÂday the parents had to carry home twentyÂfour badly beaten children who were unable to walk...," the editor of the paper was incarcerated for treason and the paper closed down for two months."

-Yeah, when the Hungarians did that to us in the 40s, no one even dared say it.

"Axis powers ordered the return of Northern Transylvania to Hungary, reuniting 1,200,000 Hungarians with their Motherland, while still leaving about 600,000 under Rumanian domination. About 100,000 of these Hungarians became the victims of the angry and barbaric Rumanian retaliation between 1940 and 1945."

-By northern Transilvania they mean a piece that stretched into the heart of Transilvania, which had a lot of Romanians in it, becuase the main centers of Hungarian population were deep inside Transilvania.

"In the fall of 1944, when the Rumanians returned into Northern Transylvania behind the advancing Russian army, another 100,000 Hungarians were exterminated, deported into deathÂcamps and the most deplorable terrorism took over."

-Of course, the Russians did nothing of the sort. That's what happened to Nazis in the Russians wake. At least our people didn't support the Nazis, we managed to overthrow them. Hungary was loyal to the Nazis until the Red Army marched through.

"Today, the number of the Hungarian minority is difficult to determine exactly, because Rumanian statistics consistently under report their number. A Rumanian author, living in the West. G. Satmarescu, writing in the East Central Europe (January 1975), edited by Professor FischerÂGalati of the University of Colorado, estimated the number of unreported Hungarians in Transylvania to 900,000, arriving at a find figure of 2.5 million. The Handbuch Europaischer Volksgruppen, published in 1974 by the European Union movement, estimated the number of Hungarians in Rumania to be 2.5 million. The Brazilian Transylvanian organization, Movimento pro Transylvania, using demographic constants of the overall population increase in Rumania and subtracting changes extraneous to the natural increase, arrived at an estimate of 2,816,555 million"

-Still, that could be applied to the census of Romanians before the war. Besides, there are always those who become assimilated and no longer consider themselves Hungarian, but I expect you will see the numbers of "Hungarians" rise in the near future as the Budapest government hatches its diabolical plot.

"The turning over of Northern Transylvania to the Rumanians in 1945 was done with the stipulation that Rumania "secure the rights of the nationalities." However, the "Nationality Statute" of February 5, 1945 was discarded after the 1947 peace treaties of Paris. In their Section
II. Political Clause, Art. 8, these treaties guaranteed equal rights to the inhabitants of Rumania without regard of race, language, religion or authenticity. (Based on these guarantees) as early as April 2, 1949, the United Kingdom and the United States filed a strong letter of protest with the Rumanian government for the violation of human rights."

-Which paled with what the Hungarians did to those Romanians under their control in WWII.

"Last year I was shown a copy of the Rumanian laws that now require a minimum of 25 students for any grade school class to be conducted in Hungarian, while only two students are required to form a class taught in Rumanian language.""

-Now, in America if you can fill a class with spanish-speakers, do you create a Spanish school for them? No. The fact that you could even have things taught in your language is a major concession, that Hungary certainly didn't grant to any Romanians in Hungary.

"According to available documented records, since 1944 more than 200,000 Hungarians have been exterminated by the Rumanians in deathÂcamps, prisons, police stations, village squares, streets, highways and railroad stations. Among them close to 800 clergymen, 687 educators, and more than 10,000 other intellectuals. During the years of 1981 and 1982 alone, we know of 198 cases where Hungarian educators, clergymen and simple workers, men and women, young and old, were beaten to death by the SECURITATE Âpolitical police  during the "interrogations" or became victims of "accidents", again by the hand of the Securitate. -Prof. Michael Sozan (Dept. of SociologyÂAnthropolgy, Slippery Rock State College)"

-And you can probably find figures equally large or bigger for Romanians who met unpleasant fates at the hand of the Securitate. They were equal-opportunity oppressors.

"It is historically documented however, that the fierce Dak people were completely exterminated by the Legions between 107 and 117 A.D. and that the Legions occupying the province were the soÂcalled "Legions of the Barbarians", meaning army units recruited from the Northwestern territories of the Roman Empire, inhabited by Germanic tribes. -Prof. Michael Sozan (Dept. of SociologyÂAnthropolgy, Slippery Rock State College)"

-Funny, no one beside him seems to have mentioned these documents, and there's this Romance language that survived surrounded by all sorts of Slavic ones, survived being overrun by the Turks, and the Hungarians.

"According to figures taken from the files of the Office of Statistics, Ministry of the Interior, Bucharest, Room 241C "Confidential Folio No. XXX2," out of the 2,898,356 Hungarians residing in Transylvania, Moldova, the city of Bucharest and the other Rumanian provinces in 1944, thirty years later, in 1974 there were only 2,217,897 listed on church rolls, party rolls and other administrative records. Of these Hungarians, 236,981 were born after 1945, leaving the number of "survivors" at 1,980,916. Taking into consideration those who were buried in the cemeteries during those thirty years between 1944 and 1974 Â a total of 194,562 Â we find a discrepancy of 722,878 Hungarians unaccounted for. Assuming that perhaps as many as 100,000 of them have left their homeland voluntarily, there are still 622,878 Hungarians missing."

-100,000 eaving their "homeland" voluntarily is a rather conservative figure. I suggest some searches are performed in Hungary for them. Certainly, there were probably more than 100,000 expelled as the Russian and Romanian armies marched through.

"When we reached Kolozsvar, today called ClujÂNapoca, we could not believe our eyes. Entire sections of the city have disappeared since we were there for the last time, seven years ago. The beautiful old Kolozsmonostor no longer exists"

-Yeah, Ceausescu did that to a lot of cities, believe me there are plenty of Romanians pissed about it too.

"We were told that many of them committed suicide when they were evacuated."

-So did a lot of Romanians, your point? Ceausescu cared little for people or for old architecture. Whole sections of Bucharest were replaced by complexes of apartment buildings.

"The discrimination against Hungarians reached such proportions that Hitler's Germany was nothing compared to it...""

-Ooh, starting to have an effect on me, until I hit this line... now I know they are exaggerating.

Enough of that... time to begin my CS homework.

[Victor Galis]

"And you evaded all the quotes I just posted and you still claim to be just, open minded, and above all, right. Go see a neurologist because something up there ain't functioning."

-You posted them while I was writing my post.

[MagyarCrusader]

Thanks for the response.

[Victor Galis]

You're welcome...

(argh... civility... nationalist fervor fading.)