Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack.

[Victor Galis]

"Third subway system in the world was built in Budapest.

New York, London, Budapest. Oh yea..."

-Somehow I doubt that, do you have some dates?

"Lets see a few Hungarians in my World Almanac who have enriched world culture and science:"

-You can find that many from any country, I'm sure.

'I believe I have heard before that Hugarians invented the Helicopter, fountain pen, possibly computer among others."

-I somehow doubt the computer.

"Most telling of all is the ALL TIME OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT. From 1896 to 2000 ALL the nations and ALL the medals were tallied up and guess what? Hungary Placed EIGHTH. EIGHTH!!!! That's incredible with all the nations on this planet, Hungary placed 8th!"

-And that means what in terms of civ?

"Look at the map I put a link for, from about 1000 till 1500 or 1600 Hungary was one of the largest nations in Europe. As big and as powerful as France or England. The Hungarians were a big player in the Crusades too, I'm not sure but I think they had their own crusade in addition to participating in the others."

-So, Poland and Lithuania were large at one time too, as was Sweden. Canada is very big right now... what a world power we are

"Who knows, if the Hungarians hadn't slowed them down and fought them off Europe may have been Muslim now. While France and England were sitting pretty Hungary was saving their asses and loosing all its power in the process."

-France kicked their Muslim ***es at Tours, and after that only Spain really had to fight them, Hungary never successfully drove them back enough to maintain its power.

'Heck even while under the Soviet boot the Hungarians fought back and had a revolution against the communists."

-So did the Czechs... and both were mercilessly crushed. Hardly a world power.

"MUCH more of a world player than the Celts or Huns or Carthaginians or any other contenders are."

-Ooh.. a country of 8 million people, still around, but rather FuNLesS if you ask me.

"I just wanted to mention that perhaps the most compelling reason to add the magyars is that they possess an almost unique linguistic group. It is a part of the Uralic family (i believe), the only two other at all significant memebers being finnish and estonian. Hungary may not have had a particularly sweeping effect on the history of humanity, but, if searching for a unique culture, part of both central asia and europe (and someone to put below the russians) the magyars are certainly an excellent choice. So come on."

-So do a whole lot of native tribes elsewhere.

'You could even throw Hungary into the game for politically correct reasons. Hungarians proportionally are the largest minority in europe. Only 2/3 of Hungarians live in the present day political borders of Hungary"

-Yeah, not too hard when you have a country of 8 million people. There are more Romanians in Moldova and the Ukraine then there are Hungarians in all of Europe outside Hungary.

"(If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land)."

-Some of us have grandparents who lived through the Hungarian ethnic cleansing of Transilvania in the 40s. Even as we speak, Marko Bella and his buddies in Budapest are plotting against the sovereignty of Romania.

"Hungary has been one of the most important influences in the Balkans, which even to this day is one of europe's most critical points. And now that Hungary is part of NATO and has millions of Hungarians living abroad in the most unfriendly region in the world for minorities, it's role in the future will be very important."

-If it weren't for NATO, I suspect it would take the Romanian army about 1 month to overrun Hungary.

"Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name."

-My God, you aren't supposed to make it this easy. Transylvania comes from the Latin, Ardeal is the alternative Romanian name and comes from Erdély, and they are in no way related. Needless to say I preffer Transilvania.

"My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war..."

-Good for you, it took us that long to get the land back, but we did finally. Transilvania was the heart of the Dacian kingdom, and the only reason the capital of Romania is Bucharest, is because we lost Transilvania to the Magyars for so long.

"Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval."

-Something tells me Hungary doesn't have that much of a say in things. And I hardly believe nations like France would support it if it were to launch an offensive war of agression.

If I were you I would stop reading Hungarian versions of history, and look for 3rd party sources.

[Victor Galis]

"Hunyadi is first mentioned, probably as a small child, in the diplomas by which King Sigismund transferred possessions of Hunyad castle (now at Hunedoara, Rom.) to one of his knights, Woyk (or Vajk), who was Hunyadi's father. János was of Walachian (a region now in Romania) ancestry."

-A nice quote from Encyclopedia Britannica... nice no

[MagyarCrusader]

*sigh

You can't really judge a country based on the opinion of it's enemies. Who in their right mind would take the national socialist view of the jewish ethnicity and hold it as fact? Romania has one goal: The colonization of Transylvania and the annihilation of Magyars from Greater Romania. Just look at the historic trends and the general attitude of it's people. If anyone actually does hold stock in the Daco-Roman continuity theory and believes Hungarians do not deserve the right to live in their own land, I'd gladly debate them but I will not waste my time with a Vlach. I'll admit it, I have a deep hatred for them, at least their governing system which has been very effective in blinding its people from seeing past their own bull****. Ceausescu made damn well sure of that. For you see, the main problem is not whether their continuity theory is correct or not, they are very racist and hate Hungarians, believing Hungarians have no right to be in Transylvania. I mean, look at Victor Galis' response! (he's Romanian) If this were not true, Wilson's point of self determination would have been upheld after WW1. The only place it was upheld was Sopron, and they voted to remain Hungarian. Hungary agreed to surrender on terms of self determination, but lost 3/4 of its land with no plebescites. Romanian nationalism is extremely dangerous to our cultures, as the Sekler Hungarians are a distinct group of Hungarians indeginous to Transylvania, yet their counties which are solid Magyar are heavily targeted by Romanian colonists for the sake of ethnic cleansing. It's sad that most people don't know about this and about the danger of extinction a human culture faces, yet instead people are concerned about saving endangered spotted beetles in the most remote region of Brazil... I guess the real question is, why do Romanians hate us so much? The Romanians of Transylvania coexisted peacefully with Hungarians without fear of ethnic cleansing for centuries, why did it all have to change? The good news is we will always have hope. If Romania can unjustifiably break a country with the swing of a pen, then even if their ethnic cleansing campaign is successful there is always the possibility that the tables will turn, and we'll do the same thing right back at ya!

[MagyarCrusader]

I'm sorry, this here was just sheer ignorance and I couldn't take the chance of an uneducated individual reading it and swallowing it:

"Hunyadi is first mentioned, probably as a small child, in the diplomas by which King Sigismund transferred possessions of Hunyad castle (now at Hunedoara, Rom.) to one of his knights, Woyk (or Vajk), who was Hunyadi's father. János was of Walachian (a region now in Romania) ancestry."

-A nice quote from Encyclopedia Britannica... nice no

First off, the intent of this quote here to try and take one of Hungary's most beloved heroes and destroy his image in an attempt to crush the Hungarian spirit. It's funny that Romanians and prehaps this version of the encyclopedia Britannica seem to think Hunyadi was Romanian, but János himself considered himself Hungarian. He had called himself Hungarian, had a Hungarian name, was Catholic not Orthodox, worked to save Hungary, and raised his children as Hungarians. Whether he was genetically 100% or not isn't important, after all I'm only 50% yet I consider myself Hungarian. I know all Romanians call the Hunyadis Romanian because like Nazi racists, they believe their genes are superior and since this man accomplished great deeds, it must have been because he had some Wallachian genes in him. In Romania, they do not allow any other view other than their fascist interpretation of history. The statue of the great king, Matthias Corvinus, that resides in the heart of Transylvania, was defaced because it said "Hungarian" on it. What were the French thinking when they put intolerant racists in power of one of the most ethnically diverse lands in Europe?

It's bad enough they stole our country, erased our people, but now they are trying to destroy our history. If anyone has questions I could answer more in detail, but I don't have time right now to dive more into specifics and I'm certainly not going to get into a flame war with a Vlach. History is written by the winners so they have no use for the truth, but it is there none the less!

[Fidel]

well, typing from budapest, all i have to say is:

NO WAY!

no magyars in the expansion pack! nice little country, but its impact on history is extremely disproportioned in the eyes of the local populace. stopping the turks BS, as mihai pointed out, is a commonplace in the whole of balkans....

if we get a magyar civilization, it shall have a minor wonder of 'trianon' that would allow everyone in the civ to spend hours at the cafe table moaning about glorious past and magyars living abroad. 'trianon' minor wonder should also add to political stability, as it would provide a ready topic for many political parties without having to seriously meddle into politics.

[Be Quicker]

Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise.

What's funny here is that both the polish and the hungarians want the huzar as their unique unit.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Be Quicker
Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise.

What's funny here is that both the polish and the hungarians want the huzar as their unique unit.

which goes to show....

[Ubik]

...and as many of you might actually know, the huzar is a Byzantine invention. The word derives from the term "Hosarioi" (Greek ×ùóÜñéïé) from the word "hosia" (÷ùóéÜ) which means (the latter) hide/sneak/ambush - a term used to describe an elite cavalary group that could fight mounted or not and were especially used in ambushes.

So, here you go

Damned, I couldn't resist posing as a smartass

[Buck Birdseed]

Yet another reason for including Hungary (beside our obviously superior culture ) would be ethnic diversity. We have the Iroquois in as an indiginous population of North America, the Aztecs for Latin America and so on. Where is the Indigenous population of Europe, though? Recent archaeological evidence shows that the indigenous population of central/northern/eastern europe and north-western asia was in fact Finno-Ugric, and that the "Finnish Invasion" never actually took place. And what is the most important finno-ugric empire? Why the hungarians, originally located at the eastern edge of the relevant area but now smack in the middle of it. Only the Celts have an equally strong claim in this regard, and they never even appraoched Hungary's stature.

[Fidel]

snapcase, i thought you were a swedish....are you actually a hungarian?

[Victor Galis]

"Romania has one goal: The colonization of Transylvania and the annihilation of Magyars from Greater Romania."

-Yes, we are trying to colonize a region of our country that is 80% Romanian

"Just look at the historic trends and the general attitude of it's people. If anyone actually does hold stock in the Daco-Roman continuity theory and believes Hungarians do not deserve the right to live in their own land, I'd gladly debate them but I will not waste my time with a Vlach."

-Why don't you look at your own history and Hungarian imperialism. My God, if Romania were really trying to be imperialistic, do you honestly think Moldova would still be independent? Would we not have elected Vadim and his cronies?

"If this were not true, Wilson's point of self determination would have been upheld after WW1. The only place it was upheld was Sopron, and they voted to remain Hungarian. Hungary agreed to surrender on terms of self determination, but lost 3/4 of its land with no plebescites. Romanian nationalism is extremely dangerous to our cultures, as the Sekler Hungarians are a distinct group of Hungarians indeginous to Transylvania, yet their counties which are solid Magyar are heavily targeted by Romanian colonists for the sake of ethnic cleansing."

-I saw a map of what the Romanian government meant by Greater Romania after WWI, you can be assured, we didn't come close to getting it. Let's put it this way... Our borders would have had nice natural boundaries, like Rivers.

"I guess the real question is, why do Romanians hate us so much?"

-Because of your sinister plots to take Transilvania.

"The Romanians of Transylvania coexisted peacefully with Hungarians without fear of ethnic cleansing for centuries, why did it all have to change?"

-So long as they kept quiet and obedient to their overlords. We remember the harshness with which you crushed revolts.

Time for me to go to class... I'll respond to the rest later. Or maybe Mihai will do it, he's better informed. I'm really doubly removed from this, once because my mother moved to Bucharest I was born, and secondly because I'm in America now. I don't hate all Hungarians, I certainly don't hate my calculus professor (He speaks German, so he's cool), but I hate the nationalist Hungarian leadership, and fanatics like you.

[MagyarCrusader]

-Yes, we are trying to colonize a region of our country that is 80% Romanian

Of course its 80% now. We have a word for that, it's called GENOCIDE! According to the Austro-Hungarian census of the empire in 1910, around 45% of Transylvania was Vlach, 38% Magyar, and the rest were mostly Saxon and Roma. Another interesting fact, the Saxons of Siegenburg (German word for Transylvania) existed and thrived for centuries since Stephen invited them to help develope the uninhabbited land, and yet they have quickly disappeared since Romanians troops moved in. Tell me, how did an entire community of a hundred thousand people vanish?

I saw a map of what the Romanian government meant by Greater Romania after WWI, you can be assured, we didn't come close to getting it. Let's put it this way... Our borders would have had nice natural boundaries, like Rivers.

Still doesn't excuse your country from your constant disregard for basic human rights of the non-aryan Wallachian race. Why didn't you let the people chose their government and nationality instead of sending armies to attack a country that already laid down arms!!!

Why don't you look at your own history and Hungarian imperialism.

Every country has trample on another's rights as some point or another in history, but we always look to avoid such situations and make amends for mistakes. The difference is Romania cares not for repentance and it's citizens that weren't born with Wallachian genes. I am not surprised by your attitude Victor, for even Vlach i've encountered is programed with the same attitude. You despise the Hungarian presence in Transylvania and you have no intention to make any concessions to for a peaceful coexistance. Telling families who have lived in the same communities for generations that suddenly they do not belong there, trampling on their rights, feeding them lies, and trying to undermine any patrotism to their culture they may have, are not healthy approaches to establish unity within a diverse land, or peaceful relations with a wary neighbor.
When I look at the Kingdom of Hungary, I can see to things. I can see a tolerant and peaceful kingdom culturally rich from it's diverese people, or I can see a failed experiment in an attempt to unify people who have no desire for peaceful coexistance ending in betrayal and murder. I try to stick with the former, for the Transylvania troubles are only a recent problem in the grand scheme of time. There were no conflicts until the time of extreme nationalism in Europe during the 1800s, when Romanian imperialists "discovered" the Daco-Roman continuity theory and agitated their people against us. As for Hungarians imperialism, here's a "nice little quote":

Make the strangers welcome in this land, let them keep their languages and customs, for weak and fragile is the realm which is based on a single language or on a single set of customs.

St. Stephen, founder of the Kingdom of Hungary in a letter to his son St. Emeric, 1036 A.D..

I don't hate all Hungarians, I certainly don't hate my calculus professor (He speaks German, so he's cool), but I hate the nationalist Hungarian leadership, and fanatics like you.

I'm a fanatic for loving my people and for condeming genocide? Glad to know I rank up their with Churchill, Martin Luther King Jr, and Ghandi. But if you seriously think I'm a fanatic, you better take a trip to Hungary and get the input of "real" Hungarians. The most deadly soldier is the soldier that isn't afraid to die. Many Hungarians feel they are already dead, and we have your chauvinistic imperialist racist xenophobic culture to thank, and they will be targeted. Communism is gone, so a new generation is arising without being victimized by Soviet propaganda. They are allowed free speech and thought and they are becoming increasingly aware of your treacherous past.

[MagyarCrusader]

This is the fanatism I was talking about. Ovious you don't know latin at all : transylvania = trans + silva = over the forest

Take a wild guess what Erdély means. The term that was used first!

So you understand how vlachs felt when hungarians came in IX century

What Vlachs. History shows Huns, Avars, Szeklers and Bulgars. Romania didn't have a country untill the 1800s. Assuming Vlachs were there, they were forced from their homes. That's why there was such a solid Romanian community there during the Austro-Hungarian empire.

If you think that NATO will support a war between Romania and Hungary, man you are really gone away!

Read my quote man! I said Romania will not get INTO NATO. I know your country wants to but it can't if Hungary vetos it. Western Europe is starting to turn against your harsh policies as well. Ever heard of the Helnsiki Watch?

Also Mihai, I thank you for respecting the fact that Matthias is Hungarian. By desktop image is of the defaced statue in Kolozsvár. It really makes me mad when people try to steal our heros away from us.

BTW, redagrding Hussars.
Almost any encyclopedia will tell you János Hunyadi developed the Hussars in the 1400s. Many of his victories over the Turks invloved surprise flanking manuever with light cavalry that would quickly strike out of nowhere then disappear. The Polish may claim the Hussar as theirs because of István Báthori, a Hungarian from Transylvania who became the King of Poland for 10 years. His armies used the winged Hussars and he scored some spectacular vicotires against the Russian empire. Báthori's armies included Transylvanians which means yes, Hungarians and Romanians did fight side to side. It was because of his victories that the rest of the world saw how usefull Hussars were, and very soon the French, Prussians and Austrians started building their own Hussar units, often drawing from Hungarian Hussar veterans from the Turkish wars to train their units and fight as mercenaries.

Snapcase-
Can you prehaps provide some internet sources on what you say? It sounds very interesting and I'd like to read more into it. Thanks.

[Victor Galis]

"First off, the intent of this quote here to try and take one of Hungary's most beloved heroes and destroy his image in an attempt to crush the Hungarian spirit. It's funny that Romanians and prehaps this version of the encyclopedia Britannica seem to think Hunyadi was Romanian, but János himself considered himself Hungarian. He had called himself Hungarian, had a Hungarian name, was Catholic not Orthodox, worked to save Hungary, and raised his children as Hungarians"

-If you were an oppressed minority in a repressive totalitarian state, would you not conform?

"What were the French thinking when they put intolerant racists in power of one of the most ethnically diverse lands in Europe?"

-The country is about 91-92% Romanian. There are many countries with larger minorities than that.

"Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise."

-Who's slavic here?

"Of course its 80% now. We have a word for that, it's called GENOCIDE!"

-No, Genocide involves killing people. Before WWII there was even a major University in the Hungarian language in Cluj. Yeah, quite genocidal. You will find that the Hungarians weren't as kind in the early forties. I've heard the horror stories.

"Another interesting fact, the Saxons of Siegenburg (German word for Transylvania) existed and thrived for centuries since Stephen invited them to help develope the uninhabbited land, and yet they have quickly disappeared since Romanians troops moved in. Tell me, how did an entire community of a hundred thousand people vanish? "

-They can leave, like a lot of them did after communism fell. Heck, my mother's aunt managed to prove she had enough Germanic heritage to please German Immigration, and now resides in Germany with her family. It'd be a stretch, but I could probably pull off the same manner of thing, now that they're in Germany. If you think that they were exterminated, then how did I spend a summer in the late 80s living in a German-speaking village in Romania? (Sure there weren't a lot of them, but you'd think if there was ethnic cleansing going on, then that wouldn't have been so safe, no?)

"Why didn't you let the people chose their government and nationality instead of sending armies to attack a country that already laid down arms!!!"

-Because they were plotting to invade Transilvania, and they were communists.

". You despise the Hungarian presence in Transylvania and you have no intention to make any concessions to for a peaceful coexistance."

-There seems to be this funny coincidence. Many Romanians and Hungarians hate gypsies, many Romanians hate Hungarians, not very many Romanians hate other peoples... funny no?

"Telling families who have lived in the same communities for generations that suddenly they do not belong there, trampling on their rights, feeding them lies, and trying to undermine any patrotism to their culture they may have, are not healthy approaches to establish unity within a diverse land, or peaceful relations with a wary neighbor."

-Then why did Hungary do it in the forties? And we were supposed to be allied at the time!

"St. Stephen, founder of the Kingdom of Hungary in a letter to his son St. Emeric, 1036 A.D.."

-And if they did anything obey that it would be nice.

"I'm a fanatic for loving my people and for condeming genocide?"

-You spew constant hatred at Romania. Tell me, have you been to Transilvania? Or have you been in the US all your life. You say your family left Arad in the 1920s, have you any rational basis for any comments after that?

"Many Hungarians feel they are already dead, and we have your chauvinistic imperialist racist xenophobic culture to thank, and they will be targeted. Communism is gone, so a new generation is arising without being victimized by Soviet propaganda. They are allowed free speech and thought and they are becoming increasingly aware of your treacherous past."

-You mean are becoming increasingly nationalistic, and plotting to invade Transilvania. You still haven't said anything about my revelations that the government in Budapest is plotting to take over Transilvania.

[Victor Galis]

"Take a wild guess what Erdély means. The term that was used first!"

-Who was there to speak that language in Roman times?

"By desktop image is of the defaced statue in Kolozsvár."

-And you claim not to be a fanatic. That would be like me having a picture of the flag of Greater Hungary that flies over the Hungarian consulate in Cluj. It is a grave affront, an a sign of things you will attempt on the future, I can't believe Funar hasn't gotten it down yet.