Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack.

[St Leo]

Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle?

A lucky idiot?

"I believe I have heard before that Hugarians invented the Helicopter, fountain pen, possibly computer among others."

Bah, it was either Babbage's Analytical Machine (British) or the Altair 8000 (American). Counting all the ones that were the first to use a switch, binary code, punch cards, etc. is rather pointless.

France kicked their Muslim ***es at Tours, and after that only Spain really had to fight them, Hungary never successfully drove them back enough to maintain its power.

Uh huh. How exactly are the forces of the Umayyad Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire related? In fact, Spain didn't really fight the Ottomans in its heyday; Austrians, Polacks, Russians, and Persians were the true enemies of the Ottomans.

If it weren't for NATO, I suspect it would take the Romanian army about 1 month to overrun Hungary.

Lol! WWI was over by Christmas of 1914.

What were the French thinking when they put intolerant racists in power of one of the most ethnically diverse lands in Europe?

I'm sure your ancestors would have treated their new Balkan possessions with great respect for the locals if the Central Powers won WWI.

Where is the Indigenous population of Europe, though? Recent archaeological evidence shows that the indigenous population of central/northern/eastern europe and north-western asia was in fact Finno-Ugric

Why don't you investigate the history of Native American migrations? Very few Native Americans could be called indigineous peoples based on that standard. Helheim, all humans outside of the East African Rift Valley and probably the majority inside aren't indigenous .

Still doesn't excuse your country from your constant disregard for basic human rights of the non-aryan Wallachian race. Why didn't you let the people chose their government and nationality instead of sending armies to attack a country that already laid down arms!!!

I'm confused. Aren't the Wallachians basically Romanians? Or is this a Prussia-like situation?

[Victor Galis]

"Lol! WWI was over by Christmas of 1914. Lol! WWI was over by Christmas of 1914."

-WWII was over for France in 6 weeks... And Hungary is nice and flat, so that tanks can roll through faster.

"I'm confused. Aren't the Wallachians basically Romanians? Or is this a Prussia-like situation?"

-Yeah, he's muddling issues here.

[MagyarCrusader]

Whatever *******.

Yeah, he's muddling issues here.

No flatter me, we'll never live up to the "Dak" standard.

If you were an oppressed minority in a repressive totalitarian state, would you not conform?

Absolutely not. With the power Hunyadi had, he could have very easily slipped the border to Wallachia... oh wait I forgot, Drakul his "kindred" betrayed him and imprisoned him.

I can't believe Funar hasn't gotten it down yet.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever mention Funar and try to deny genocide at the same time. This is the guy who says he will proclaim anyone a national hero is they vandalize/destroy/murder anything Magyar.

The country is about 91-92% Romanian. There are many countries with larger minorities than that.

I guess it's a funny yet subtle sign... you keep leaving out the part that nobody made a majority in Transylvania before WW1.

Who's slavic here?

You, acording to archeology and your own people before Romania became a country in the 1800s and you needed a justified cause for imperialism and genocide. Oh yes, you consider Slavs subhuman to do ya?

No, Genocide involves killing people. Before WWII there was even a major University in the Hungarian language in Cluj. Yeah, quite genocidal. You will find that the Hungarians weren't as kind in the early forties. I've heard the horror stories.

Legion of the Archangel Michael. May vengence truly be the Lord's.

If you think that they were exterminated, then how did I spend a summer in the late 80s living in a German-speaking village in Romania?

That means you treated Germans better than us because they didn't resist the cleansing like Hungarians. In the 80s many "citizens" of Romania who spoke Hungarian were stolen away from their communities and forced into slave labor camps on the Danube delta for commiting no crime other than proclaiming themselves Hungarian.

And if they did anything obey that it would be nice.

Again, another funny yet sutle sign that you ignore points we've already established. It's no doubt that Romanians lived in Transylvania for several centuries, and they make up almost 50% of the land before 1920, yet their numbers in the past century have jumped to about 80%. Kinda fishy...

No, Genocide involves killing people.

Testimony:
"On March 19, 1975, Mr. Ferenc Balla gave the following testimony: "I was born and raised in the village of Feketelak, Transylvania, population about one thousand, of which threeÂfourths were Hungarian and oneÂfourth Rumanians. We bad two schools in the village. One for the Rumanians, and one for us, Hungarians. From 1919 to 1944 our school was maintained by the Hungarian Reformed (Calvinist) Church, while the Rumanian school was maintained by the State.
Early on the morning of October 16, 1944, Rumanian soldiers surrounded our village. Those who tried to escape into the woods were shot. Then Rumanian soldiers went from house to house, led by the Rumanian civilians from our village. They entered only the houses of the Hungarians. First they beat up every male member of the family, from the age of ten to ninety. Then they raped all the women, from the age of ten to ninety. They herded all the men together, and kept on beating and torturing them until many of them died. They took the young girls with them. Some of these girls were never seen again.
I was fifteen, and they beat me too, with gunÂbutts and leather whips. My father was killed, and so was my mother. They raped my two sisters and took them away. I was locked, together with other boys and men into the church, while they feasted all night in the village. Next morning they drove us away, on foot. Some of the men were so badly beaten, that they were unable to walk. These were kicked to death or shot on the road side.
Near the town of Sarmas we joined a huge herd of men, driven together from all the nearby towns and villages. They were all Hungarians. There must have been thousands of us. Many barefoot. Then they drove us for six weeks, across the mountains, into oldÂRumania. It was getting very cold, and we were fed only once a day some soup and dry bread. Many died along the road.
Then the Russians came and looked us over. They took only the young and the healthy. They took me, too. They put us on a train, and took us into Russia, where we worked building roads and bridges. I don't know what happened to the others who were left behind in the hands of the Rumanians. I have never met any one of them again.
When the Russians let me go in 1951,1 went home, to Feketelak. The Rumanians called it Lacu. I found only one of my sisters there. From the Hungarians who lived there before only about oneÂthird was left. Many of them died in the labor camps, I was told, and many of them stayed in oldÂRumania, mostly in Bucharest, for they did not dare to return home.
Rumanians were ruling the village. They were brought mostly from Besarabia, and put into the houses of the Hungarians. They gave me a job on the state farm, but we were not allowed to speak Hungarian on the job. There was no more Hungarian school. I had an uncle who stayed in Bucharest as a carpenter, and I went to see him. Life was much better there for Hungarians, and so I decided to stay with him.
In October 1956, we heard the news of the uprising in Hungary. Rumors were circulating that something may happen soon in Transylvania, too. I wanted to be there, so I went back to Feketelak, on the bus. The very day I arrived at my sister's house, I was arrested, together with more than a dozen other Hungarians. We were interrogated all night at the police station. They wanted us to confess that we were paid by the Americans to start a revolution against the Rumanian people. When they started working on our fingernails, we all confessed, and signed anything they wanted us to sign. We were taken to Kolozsvar, which is called Cluj by the Rumanians, and put into prison. In February we were sentenced by a court. I got fifteen years of hard labor, and was taken with many other Hungarians to the swamps of the Danube delta. We worked there like animals, waistÂdeep in the mud, digging canals. Many got sick and died.
In 1971 they let me go. They even gave me a job in Bucharest, collecting garbage. I was told that I could work there in peace as long as I lived, but if I dared to go back home they would put me in jail again, for they don't like Hungarians, they told me, who insist on staying in Transylvania.
In 1973, I was able to escape into Yugoslavia, and from there to Italy.""

Victor, you'll excuse me when I say **** YOU VAMPIRE!

http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/genoci/genoci09.htm

PS, if any moderated reads this, you are welcome to delete my posts as long as Victor's are deleted as well. This is off topic but this thread should be allowed to continue. I have to reply every time Victor posts because it's too damn degrading for a person with honor, dignity and love to read.

[Mihai]

We need someone impartial

Originally posted by St Leo
A lucky idiot?

He wasn't idiot and certanly not lucky - he died of plage right after his victory

Originally posted by St Leo
Bah, it was either Babbage's Analytical Machine (British) or the Altair 8000 (American). Counting all the ones that were the first to use a switch, binary code, punch cards, etc. is rather pointless.

Small country like so much to think that there was their kind who made that and that invention. Don't you heard that Henri Coanda, the guy how invented (so I know) turbo reactor was romanian? Of course, not in Romania but in France, not to mention that 'Henri' is a france name, not romanian. My guess is that this guy had a grandparent of romanian origin and that's good enough for our nationalists

Originally posted by St Leo
Austrians, Polacks, Russians, and Persians were the true enemies of the Ottomans.

They were the most important, but we like to mentions our ancestors

Originally posted by St Leo
Lol! WWI was over by Christmas of 1914.

Victor was refering at the overthrowing of communist Bela Kun in 1919. I like to see that is someone who can make a joke in this too heated debate.

Originally posted by St Leo
I'm sure your ancestors would have treated their new Balkan possessions with great respect for the locals if the Central Powers won WWI.

Ditto !

Originally posted by St Leo
I'm confused. Aren't the Wallachians basically Romanians? Or is this a Prussia-like situation?

He like to say Vlach/Wallachia instead of Romanian/Romania because back then Hungaria was much more important and powerful that small principates of Wallachia and Moldova (Transylvania been at that time part of Hungaria or ruled by hungarian nobles). Now is a little otherway but he likes more the past

[Victor Galis]

"Do yourself a favor and don't ever mention Funar and try to deny genocide at the same time. This is the guy who says he will proclaim anyone a national hero is they vandalize/destroy/murder anything Magyar."

- Yeah, but look at Cluj, the city, unlike Bucharest, looks like a city that isn't run by a corrupt mayor (Although, Basescu might have fixed that since I was last there.)

Speaking of Funar:

1. Romanian: Sti ca Funar are ceva singe de ungur?
2. Romanian: Chiar asa?
1. Romanian: Da, pe bara de la masina.

"I guess it's a funny yet subtle sign... you keep leaving out the part that nobody made a majority in Transylvania before WW1."

-According to your census. Just the way you count people makes a difference.

"Oh yes, you consider Slavs subhuman to do ya?"

-No, unlike the Hungarians they are not still trying to take over our country.

"In the 80s many "citizens" of Romania who spoke Hungarian were stolen away from their communities and forced into slave labor camps on the Danube delta for commiting no crime other than proclaiming themselves Hungarian."

-Sometimes you're so funny, that I'm mildly amused.

"PS, if any moderated reads this, you are welcome to delete my posts as long as Victor's are deleted as well. This is off topic but this thread should be allowed to continue. I have to reply every time Victor posts because it's too damn degrading for a person with honor, dignity and love to read."

-You insult me, throw names (which the board censors) and false accusations at me, and then you stoop so low as to suggest that I am at your level. You disgust me in ways that right-wing Americans can not even begin thinking about disgusting me. Keep your language civil if you want to make any pretense of debating on an equal footing. I do not go around calling myself Romanian Crusader, I don't in my profile suggest that my purpose here is to spread lies favored by the nationalist government of my country (We don't even have a nationalist government, they lost the elections.), and yet you don't recognize that you are the fanatic.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Oh yes, you consider Slavs subhuman to do ya?

It's just that slavs doesn't belong in this debate.
Our people asimilated some slavs, but is a loooong way to say that romanians are slavs.

[orange]

When you open up your post with...

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Whatever *******.

...you know you're fighting a losing battle.

[MagyarCrusader]

you know you're fighting a losing battle.

Yeah I know, it's impossible to make chauvinists look at statistics and facts to show them how wrong they are, all they do is just come up with good one liner insults. I admire Jews, for they've suffered centuries of discrimination and genocide but were still able to achieve justifice for their nation. Hungarians have only faced it for 80 years, which is only a wink in time, but if they can do it we still have hope. I just can't sit back here and take a chance that their hatred and lies may conquer uninformed minds. Whether or not I'm a skilled debator, the facts are lying around. Just be sure to look into both sides. Remember, history is written by the winners, but that doesn't mean they are right. This most certainly is the case with Wallachia.

Sometimes you're so funny, that I'm mildly amused.

Yeah, and the KKK finds public lynchings funny as well!

According to your census. Just the way you count people makes a difference.

I assume you are accusing the census of being rigged. If it were rigged why would the numbers show more Romanians than Hungarians? There was no need to rig a census in 1910, nobody near their country was going to be destroyed 10 years later. Even according to the German census in the 1930s, Hungarians made a clear majority in Northern Transylvania. Probably not anymore, again 80 years of ethnic cleansing works wonders on ethnic makeup.

You insult me, throw names (which the board censors) and false accusations at me, and then you stoop so low as to suggest that I am at your level.

Your problem is you are either closed minded or you don't regard Hungarians are humans. Start reading some testimonials, I provided one link. There are millions of testimonies out there. Would you ask a Jew not to be angry at a Nazi after what they went through? Secondly, you are not at my level and you never will be. I hate your government and your lies but I respect the right Romanians have. Hungarians never have and never will force Romanians from their homes. Look, there are even Romanians immigrating to Hungary today in the eastern regions! About 20,000-30,000, all have came within recent years. They are guraunteed self government and as much protection under the law as any Hungarian. And yes, Hungary allows this even with the knowledge of your attitude towards our people.

He like to say Vlach/Wallachia instead of Romanian/Romania because back then Hungaria was much more important and powerful that small principates of Wallachia and Moldova (Transylvania been at that time part of Hungaria or ruled by hungarian nobles). Now is a little otherway but he likes more the past.

Prehaps because I know your history better than you know it yourself. Romanians throughout history have called themselves Vlach. The only reason they call themselves "Roman" is to support their imperialism, it's a tool of propaganda. Calling a Vlach a Roman is like calling a Magyar a Hun. Of course though, I can't compete with the wit of a 12 year old Roman robot comedian can I?

[Victor Galis]

"Yeah I know, it's impossible to make chauvinists look at statistics and facts to show them how wrong they are, all they do is just come up with good one liner insults."

-Perhaps you shouldn't expose all of your modus operandi

"I assume you are accusing the census of being rigged. If it were rigged why would the numbers show more Romanians than Hungarians? There was no need to rig a census in 1910, nobody near their country was going to be destroyed 10 years later. Even according to the German census in the 1930s, Hungarians made a clear majority in Northern Transylvania. Probably not anymore, again 80 years of ethnic cleansing works wonders on ethnic makeup."

-A lot of people have mixed blood. If you count someone that is half Hungarian, half Romanian as Hungarian, you will get a lot more Hungarians, then if you counted him as Romanian. You can't really compare two censuses taken by different governments which want to show different ethnic groups as more prominent. Besides, wouldn't you want to answer that you're one of the (insert name of dominant ethnic group) if the answer to that question were ambiguous?

"Your problem is you are either closed minded or you don't regard Hungarians are humans. Start reading some testimonials, I provided one link."

-Give me a link from a source that is not Hungarian. All your sources are Hungarian. I could just as easily dig up Romanian sites that declare we should own everything on the near side of the Tisza (well maybe not, because Romanians aren't as nationalistic).

"Would you ask a Jew not to be angry at a Nazi after what they went through?"

-Funny you should bring up the jews after what Hungary did to them in WWII.

"Secondly, you are not at my level and you never will be."

-I never claimed to be so low as you.

"I hate your government and your lies but I respect the right Romanians have."

-You know what's funny? The current government was endorsed by the UDMR, you know why? Because they were not the nationalists. If Tudor and his buddies had been elected, I would see why you would hate them, but....

"Hungarians never have and never will force Romanians from their homes."

-ROTFLMAO... that's a good one. Look at what they did during the war when the Nazis let them rule part of Transilvania.

"Look, there are even Romanians immigrating to Hungary today in the eastern regions! About 20,000-30,000, all have came within recent years. They are guraunteed self government and as much protection under the law as any Hungarian."

-But not schools in Romanian, as Hungarians in Romania are guaranteed schools in Hungarian in Romania. Hungary is a richer country. They got more foreign investment since they share a border with the West, so of course people move there.

"Prehaps because I know your history better than you know it yourself. Romanians throughout history have called themselves Vlach. The only reason they call themselves "Roman" is to support their imperialism, it's a tool of propaganda. Calling a Vlach a Roman is like calling a Magyar a Hun. Of course though, I can't compete with the wit of a 12 year old Roman robot comedian can I?"

-Alright, if the terms are completely unrelated, why is Romanian a Romance language? Did we make up a Latin sounding language with some mixed in traces of Dacian to further our imperialist schemes? (All while under at least nominal control by the Ottoman empire, I might add?) Perhaps it was the Bavarian Illuminati, not liking how much influence non-Germans (Hungarians) had within the Austrian empire

[Mihai]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Prehaps because I know your history better than you know it yourself. Romanians throughout history have called themselves Vlach. The only reason they call themselves "Roman" is to support their imperialism, it's a tool of propaganda.

Maybe we should call ourself Vlach-Moldavian-Transilvanians

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Calling a Vlach a Roman is like calling a Magyar a Hun.

I thought that Huns aren't Magyar's ancestors.

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Of course though, I can't compete with the wit of a 12 year old Roman robot comedian can I?

Who are you refering to?

[Victor Galis]

You know technically, if you want to be completely pedantic, I'm mostly Transilvanian with some Moldovan I was born in Bucharest, but my mom was born in Cluj, and her whole family is Transilvanian, and my dad was also born in Bucharest but the majority of his family is Moldovan (with some Transilvanian). Both sides are purely Romanian as far back as we can trace them now (about 150 years) except for one Austrian five generations back. There's also a great great uncle who married the daughter of an Austrian count, but he's not a direct ancestor of mine.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader

Some famous military magyars-
János Hunyadi- prehaps the best Medeival tactician europe ever saw. Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle? Siege of Belgrade. Catholic Church bells around the world have forever since rang at noon to celebrate this victory!

In the battle of Carajimica (spelling?) 250 Spanards defeated an army of 20,000 Incas, killed most of the nobility & political elites and captured the Inca monarch. This was probably the single greatest military victory in the history of the world.

[Dinner]

Re: We need someone impartial

Originally posted by Mihai Small country like so much to think that there was their kind who made that and that invention. Don't you heard that Henri Coanda, the guy how invented (so I know) turbo reactor was romanian? Of course, not in Romania but in France, not to mention that 'Henri' is a france name, not romanian. My guess is that this guy had a grandparent of romanian origin and that's good enough for our nationalists

This is so true! Last year I served in Kosovo with the U.S. Army and both the Serbs and the Albanians claimed that their ancestors invented everything. I even had to politely listen to an Albanian villager talk for a half hour while he explained that so and so from Albania invented the light bulb and the Americans stole it and so and so local villager invented the automobile and the Germans stole it. It was laughable, but still I understand the communist governments started these lies as a way of building nationalism & hatered against the west.

[Dinner]

Please gentlemen.... Can we have an end to the nationalist cheat thumping? If anyone is interested in a an impartial 3rd party view on the history of the balkans which contains several enlightening chapters on both Hungary and Rumania the pick up a copy of the book "Balkan Ghosts". I can't think of the author right now but you should be able to find it on a title such at Amazon. It did a truly great job at dealing impartially with a region known of ethnic seporatism and the rewriting of history to fit nationalist criteria. Cheers.

[MagyarCrusader]

Please gentlemen.... Can we have an end to the nationalist cheat thumping?

I'd love to! But as long as lies and hatred are directed towards my kindred I cannot refrain from posting. This started out with Ozzy trying to list accomplishments of a country until Victor comes in here with his insults lies and terror. Just look at the tone of his first post! Unfortunately with the situation, you can't expect anything more out of him or any "Romanian".

Victor I must congragulate you. You truly are intelligent and willy, a master at misconstruing facts. Goebbles would truly be proud.

Give me a link from a source that is not Hungarian. All your sources are Hungarian. I could just as easily dig up Romanian sites that declare we should own everything on the near side of the Tisza (well maybe not, because Romanians aren't as nationalistic).

duh! Of course the testimonials are going to be Hungarian, since its the Hungarians are suffering!

Oh yes, if you want non Hungarian sources, look for texts contained in the Helnsinki report pertaining to Transylvania. I think it was released around 5 years ago, so most of it is still relevant. However, I wouldn't be surprised if you dismessed it as a "Finno-Urgic consipriacy" to undermine the great nation of peacefully innocent Romania.

Funny you should bring up the jews after what Hungary did to them in WWII.

ROTFLMAO... that's a good one. Look at what they did during the war when the Nazis let them rule part of Transilvania.

That's the arrow cross party, something we are very ashamed of and sorry for. That's why the swastica and arrow cross (along with socialist symbols) are banned in Hungary. You did the same thing in Southern Transylvania during the war. The difference is our mistakes were a reaction of what you've been duing for the 20 previous years, and continued to do up until the fall of communism. We are sorry for our mistakes, but Romania is not. Look, you are just as bad as a holocaust denier!

You know what's funny? The current government was endorsed by the UDMR, you know why? Because they were not the nationalists. If Tudor and his buddies had been elected, I would see why you would hate them, but....

In America that's called the "closepin vote". Think about it.

well maybe not, because Romanians aren't as nationalistic

Of course not, Romania just wants an ethnically pure Romania! Sorry Victor, I understand doublspeak too well.

But not schools in Romanian,

Wrong! You can look at the Hungarian constitution yourself (oh I'm sorry, that's a biased source right?). Then again, Romanians have no use for truth and facts.

Alright, if the terms are completely unrelated, why is Romanian a Romance language? Did we make up a Latin sounding language with some mixed in traces of Dacian to further our imperialist schemes?

You don't see the French, Spanish or Portuguese claiming to be Roman do you? They speak Romance languages. I have heard there were only 6 Dacian words in the Romanian vocabulary. Dacians were only under Roman rule for about 100 years and they fought several revolutions against Rome. One general called the Dacians fierce warrios that would never capitulate. After Rome, the Goths moved in and pillaged the land. Right after that it was the Huns. After that the Bulgars. After that the Avars. How does an entire culture get born in an environment like that?

Hungary is a richer country. They got more foreign investment since they share a border with the West, so of course people move there.

Gee what a coincidence!!! Don't you think the same thing happened in the 14th and 15th centuries with Ottoman expansion? The Palpacy requested that the kings of Hungary grant asylum to the Vlachs, and thats a historical fact.

But Victor, understand this. I am not saying that Romanians have no right to live in Transylvania. You have as much right as us or anyone else. I disagree with Romania using a myth as a tool to justify their attacks on the Hungarian people. I believe both all people of Transylvania should have equal rights. However, Romania has continuily violated the rights of Hungarians in the past, and with attitudes such as yours, Romania will continue to violate Hungarian rights. The only secure protection Hungarians in Transylvania have is if they are governed by Budapest. Of course, I don't believe any of Transylvania should have been ceeded to Romania however if it comes to compromise, self determination is the only fair way. Unfortunately, your country leaves little room for comprimise since you stole all of it, even a chunk of the Great Hungarian Plain and you don't respect of cultural ties to the land.