The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Saint Marcus]

I'll let you do the research since I already have.

Ok, here's a start. Did some checking on the Vikings...and they were far from being barbaric and disruptive as you said. Feel free to respond.

It is also not possible to gauge how disruptive and hostile the Vikings were. Archaeological evidence reveals a culture that was the most advanced in Europe in the manufacture of arms and jewelry, as well as shipbuilding. Many styles of Viking ships were adopted by other European powers, most notably Alfred the Great of Wessex. The Vikings also displayed an ability to mobilize economic resources and to dominate a hostile landscape. These abilities can be seen in their great fortified camps, like that at Visby in Sweden, where hundreds of soldiers and traders lived. Additionally, the Vikings fostered commerce, founding many prominent trading centers in England (Wessex), Ireland (Dublin) and France (Normandy). Furthermore, the Vikings set foot on lands where no human has ever said foot on.

In addition, the Vikings created a rich body of vernacular literature in which they celebrated their heroic past. The Icelandic sagas represent a vast collection of both stories and histories. Some concern the great leaders of heroic days and the kings of the 11th and 12th centuries; many others deal with the families, feuds, and changing fortunes of the petty chieftains of Icelandic farmsteads and valleys in the 13th and 14th centuries. The more historical sagas describe what is known about the colonization of Iceland, the voyages to North America, and the rise of the powerful kings who led the efforts toward conversion and political consolidation. The Poetic Edda of Snorri Sturluson, who wrote in the early 1200s, portrays pre-Christian Viking history and mythology.

Signs of the Viking influence are found in the languages, vocabulary, and place-names of the areas in which they settled. These offer clues regarding the density of migration, the ease of assimilation, and the preservation of distinct northern institutions and usages. An early form of popular or open government can be seen in the open air Althing of Iceland, where the free farmers came to voice complaints, resolve feuds, and enunciate and interpret the law for free men and their families and dependents. Icelanders view this as the earliest form of parliamentary government in Europe. The jury of English common law was a direct outgrowth of Viking ideas about community obligations and sworn investigations, both vital steps in building a civil society.

[Saint Marcus]

In other words, the Vikings had a lot more influence than the Koreans ever had. And not only destructive, as you said. Just read this extract and still try to claim that the Vikings are simply a bunch of destructive conquerers with little culture and civilization. That's just a stereotype.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Mark L
Ok, here's a start. Did some checking on the Vikings...and they were far from being barbaric and disruptive as you said. Feel free to respond.

Interesting. Would you mention the source, please? Thank you in advance

[Saint Marcus]

Encarta.

Contributed By:
Joel T. Rosenthal, B.A., M.A., Ph.D.
Professor of History, State University of New York at Stony Brook.

[yin26]

First, I congratulate you find a good passage for us to look at.

Vikings had a lot more influence than the Koreans ever had.

Yes, and most of it negative. Sure, you can find things they did well. But they are a raiding civ. Hitler had an "influence" as well. Am I saying the Vikings were like Hitler? No. Am I saying that they tore across their neighbors territories pillaging and raping along the way? Absolutely. THAT is the primary influence...let's take a closer look:

It is also not possible to gauge how disruptive and hostile the Vikings were.

Read: "So let's avoid talking about how disruptive they were." This is called revisionist history. There are so many accounts of bloodshed at Vikings' hands this statement is rather sad.

Archaeological evidence reveals a culture that was the most advanced in Europe in the manufacture of arms and jewelry, as well as shipbuilding.

Arms = weapons of war. Yes, we know.

Jewelry = hardly anything to shape the world.

Shipbuilding = Yes, their ship designs made a kinds of exploration and trade possible. That is not in doubt. Comparable to the printing press? Certainly. More influencial in civilized way? Would make a good debate, for sure. In the long run, too close to call, I think.

created a rich body of vernacular literature in which they celebrated their heroic past.

Korea has the same and MORE of it. Why? Priting press, once again. And the oldest woodblock...oldest PRINTED...book on earth from the 8th century. Vikings don't have it until the 11th.

Signs of the Viking influence are found in the languages, vocabulary, and place-names of the areas in which they settled.

A natural side-effect of killing people and stealing their stuff. While Korean hasn't influenced other languages, its written form is considered perhaps the best EVER devised.

The jury of English common law was a direct outgrowth of Viking ideas about community obligations and sworn investigations, both vital steps in building a civil society.

I had not heard of this before. Could be a stretch, but if not, this IS significant. But remember that Korea had a civil society about 500 years before anything like this in Europe...a civil society that included community obligations and alliegience to the king.

So, you have raised some good points, and I applaud you. If you would like to take on my counter-comments, please do. I rather enjoy how we are taking this in the right direction.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Mark L
BTW, the colors in the current Maltese flag are a reminder of their Norman past (red and white being the colors they wore).

I was under the impression that the colours of the flag were more a reminder of the colours the Knights of the Order of St. John wore. They ruled the island from 1530-1798. Their symbol was a white cross on red background.

[yin26]

Ah, I missed a few important things:

First, Korean is the basis for the Japanese language.

Second, the passage you gave on the Vikings is, from my understanding, part of a rather new attempt to 're-evaluate' the Vikings and downplay their reputation as raiders. That line of research is yet to be given much support in general. So while it is no doubt giving a bit more balanced view of the Vikings, the overwhelming historical understanding and historical evidence is that Vikings were the scariest thing on God's Holy Earth in their time...again, mainly by destroying.

As you have shown, they brought with them a few good side-effects, but don't ignore the wave looking at the calm sea behind it.

[Saint Marcus]

Yes, and most of it negative.

Same could be said for the German civ, who troughout history have had a big positive influence in the world, but mostly a very negative one. Consider all they wars they fought, they started both WW1 (with the Austrians) and WW2.

Sure, you can find things they did well. But they are a raiding civ.

That's a big a stereo type as saying Korea was a shadow of China/Japan.

Am I saying that they tore across their neighbors territories pillaging and raping along the way? Absolutely.

Just about every nation did that in those during times of war. Nothing remarkable. Also, the Vikings were originally traders and farmers, not conquerers.

Read: "So let's avoid talking about how disruptive they were." This is called revisionist history. There are so many accounts of bloodshed at Vikings' hands this statement is rather sad.

So you have a PhD in Scandinavian history? This is written down in MS Encarta...can't say the same for all the stuff you claim about the Koreans. BTW, every nation has many accounts of bloodshed at their own hands.

Shipbuilding = Yes, their ship designs made a kinds of exploration and trade possible. That is not in doubt. Comparable to the printing press? Certainly. More influencial in civilized way? Would make a good debate, for sure. In the long run, too close to call, I think.

Close call indeed. The Viking's influence in shipbuilding certainly had a huge impact on the world.

But remember that Korea had a civil society about 500 years before anything like this in Europe...a civil society that included community obligations and alliegience to the king.

Alliegience to a king is very common in many nations all over the world, including early Europe. And community obligations isn't exactly a mayor achievement, considering even the most primitive native americans had this too. Also, why does it matter in what timeframe it is? Sure in ancient times the Koreans beat most Europeans, but after that Europe wins hands down.

I was under the impression that the colours of the flag were more a reminder of the colours the Knights of the Order of St. John wore. They ruled the island from 1530-1798. Their symbol was a white cross on red background.

Partly true. Maltese flag is influenced by both the Normans and Hospitaliers. The Hospitaliers used the colors blue and white, not red and white. That are Norman colors. When Malta declare independence from Britain they took the Cross from the Knights of St.John, and used the colors from the Normans who ruled the country in early medieval times.

First, Korean is the basis for the Japanese language.

And your point is? The Viking language is the basis for the Danish, Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian language.

Second, the passage you gave on the Vikings is, from my understanding, part of a rather new attempt to 're-evaluate' the Vikings and downplay their reputation as raiders. That line of research is yet to be given much support in general.

It is written down in MS Encarta for crying out loud. How much more support does one need?

As you have shown, they brought with them a few good side-effects, but don't ignore the wave looking at the calm sea behind it.

So why is that bad? Sure, it was bad then, but they played an important part in history, are cerainly not "barbarians", and deserve to be included in Civ3 for their influence in the world and their rich culture.

[yin26]

It is written down in MS Encarta for crying out loud. How much more support does one need?

LOL! I don't mean to laugh, but that is funny. I have no idea of your educational background, so please correct me if I am wrong: But that sounds like something a high school student would say after searching the free CD that came with his computer.

If you want to be sure of yourself, check MULTIPLE sources. MS Encarta is hardly something to stake your life on. There is a wealth of information on the Vikings. If you care to keep searching, you will see what I mean.

As for the Korean language being the basis of the Japanese language, your quote points to the Viking language influencing other language. Well, so has Korean. If you want to point at Japan as a major nation, just remember where the roots of its language came from. This is a discussion about one culture influencing the other, right?

As for the Germans, I don't see their leaders visiting a shrine for Nazi war criminals, do you? How the two nations dealt with their pasts is the source of a lot of what I am posting here. If Japan's leadership would own up to its past and stop worshipping the kinds of images I posted, I would not have used up so much time talking about Japan.

[Saint Marcus]

Some research that goes against your claims. Also from Encarta.

The earliest known Korean state was Old Choson, in what is now northwestern Korea and southern Northeast China; it was conquered by the Han Chinese in 108 BC. Thereafter the Chinese set up military outposts in Korea that helped spread Chinese culture and civilization. The first of the three main Korean kingdoms to come in contact with the spreading Chinese influence was Koguryo, which emerged in the 1st century BC in the north. Paekche in the southwest and Silla in the southeast, which emerged in the 3rd and the 4th century AD, respectively, had contact with China as well. To a degree these kingdoms accepted Buddhism, Confucianism, and most importantly, Chinese characters as a means of communication and education.

So the Chinese shaped the early Korean culture. Korea ows it's culture to China.

Kaya and Japan had particularly close ties, and for many years Japanese historians depicted Kaya as a Japanese-dominated kingdom. Korean scholars have long rejected that view, and most modern historians are divided as to which kingdom, if either, dominated the other.

So your claims that Japan was mainly influenced by Korea instead of the other way around is not commonly accepted. Japan probably influenced the Koreans just as much.

The full flowering of Koryo culture took place in the 1100s. It was marked by a stable central government, influenced by Chinese political institutions and methods;

More Chinese influence.

Choson's early kings and its elite class of Confucianists established a social and political structure that withstood all challenges until 1910, achieving one of the longest periods of domination by a single dynasty in world history. Although heavily influenced by Chinese culture, Choson maintained a distinctive identity, as illustrated by its own unique alphabet, invented in 1446 by King Sejong.

Even more Chinese influence. Even "heavily" this time.

During the 17th and 18th centuries Choson enjoyed generally able kings and competent administration, although the court periodically witnessed factional struggles. Socially, the elite excelled at practicing the principles of Confucianism, as inspired by the Neo-Confucian movement of China.

And yet again the Chinese influencing Korea. it seems the Koreans are just a mix of the Japenese and, mostly, Chinese cultures.

Furthermore, Korea was invaded and conqueredby the Chinese, Mongols, Manchuns and Japanese (twice). They were conquered at least 5 times!! Not a very powerful nation, were they?

[Saint Marcus]

LOL! I don't mean to laugh, but that is funny. I have no idea of your educational background, so please correct me if I am wrong: But that sounds like something a high school student would say after searching the free CD that came with his computer.

MS Encarta is commonly known to be one of the best non-academic encyclopedias availiable. Furtermore, I'm in university studying philosophy, but can't get to my universities library at the moment. Plus, the Vikings are not "my" civ, so I'm not going to spend the same amount of time you did on researching the Koreans. I could research the dutch, but that would be quite pointless since they'd beat the Koreans hands down. Though they're still not worthy of a place among the top 16, I'm realistic.

[yin26]

So the Chinese shaped the early Korean culture. Korea ows it's culture to China.

Your first statement is right. Your second one is not. Korea had a culture of its own independent of China. As I have said, Korea accepted it "Little Brother" status with China as a matter of survival and sound policy.

Japan probably influenced the Koreans just as much.

After Korea had already given Japan a huge cultural road map (which in turn was heavily influenced by China as we said), this became possible mainly after Japan was cracked open like a nut by Western powers.

Socially, the elite excelled at practicing the principles of Confucianism, as inspired by the Neo-Confucian movement of China.

Notice the word 'inspired.' Then consider another of your own quotes:

Although heavily influenced by Chinese culture, Choson maintained a distinctive identity, as illustrated by its own unique alphabet, invented in 1446 by King Sejong.

So don't overdo this Korea is a Chinese knock-off thing. It's simply wrong.

Furthermore, Korea was invaded and conqueredby the Chinese, Mongols, Manchuns and Japanese (twice). They were conquered at least 5 times!! Not a very powerful nation, were they?

In fact, China nearly broke itself trying to conquer Korea. So rather than continue such efforts, China realized it benefitted both sides much better to have peaceful trade and cultural exchange. Also, Korea served China as a natural buffer and close friend. The Mongol influence also took over China and a HUGE landmass...so this point is a bit silly to make in terms of Korea being weak. And Japan's ability and manner of conquering Korea (and in the Nanjing Massacre) has been covered many times by me here.

Again, you are over-reaching. Korea has survived 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years. Meanwhile, where are the Egyptians, Romans, Incans...? Yes, talk to me about a powerful nation.

[yin26]

one of the best non-academic encyclopedias availiable

You might want to underscore the "non"-academic part. It's a starter kit, and not always a good one.

I'm not going to spend the same amount of time you did on researching the Koreans.

Fair enough. Then realize you might be missing some very important information.

I could research the dutch, but that would be quite pointless since they'd beat the Koreans hands down.

Confident for a man who admits to not doing the research.

[yin26]

By the way, I commend you for AT LEAST looking at some source (even if not a very comprehensive one) to try to debate your point. That puts you in an elite category here on Poly. I hope you encourage yourself to dig deeper and REALLY make this fun.

[Saint Marcus]

Korea has survived 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years. Meanwhile, where are the Egyptians, Romans, Incans...? Yes, talk to me about a powerful nation.

Egypt is still around

Rome now is Italy. And Rome's influence survived for a hell of a long time in the form of the Byzantines and the Rennaisance.

Incans? Do some checking on them if you will. You'll find out that their culture is still very much alive in Peru.

And Korea? It didn't survive anymore than any other ancient nation. It's even split in two now.