The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[connorkimbro]

damn, i'm sorry that i missed this thread until now.

yin: great work!!!! i'd have been here helping you out with this, but i've been unaware of this thread's existance. oh well. Go Korea!!

[Dinner]

Originally posted by yin26
Can't remember back to the 13th largest economy in the world, eh?

I have to get into the middle of you gentlemen's argument, but, I'd like to make a point to Yin that I failed to mention earlier.

Yin, I sorry to say it but the size of the economy is only one (very) small part of what makes a great civ. My own home state of California would be the world's 6th largest economy if it was an independent country, however, you won't see me beating the drum to have a California civ included.
It just takes alot more world influence and alot more scientific achievement in order to build the whole package. Now Korea might actually have "the whole package" but ten or even twenty years of economic data just doesn't cut the mustard.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Mark L
. The Americans, British and Russians all displayed quite an interest in Iceland as a possible naval/airforce base to launch operations from. Amazing nobody annexed them in history.

The Icelandic CIV!! YEAH!!

The British did take control of the country (at least militarially if not in the day to day government) during world war 2 to keep the Germans out.

[Saint Marcus]

The British did take control of the country (at least militarially if not in the day to day government) during world war 2 to keep the Germans out.

True. But same with Korea and the Americans. I think American forces are still present there in large numbers (could be wrong about this though).

[yin26]

CONN: Could have used ya, pal!

Now Korea might actually have "the whole package" but ten or even twenty years of economic data just doesn't cut the mustard.

Agreed. That's why the thread went all over the place. Econ was just one of the things I mentioned...and I mentioned it in a specific context.

[mactbone]

Is there some kind of Thread Hall of Fame, because I think this one's worthy of a nomination.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Mark L
The British did take control of the country (at least militarially if not in the day to day government) during world war 2 to keep the Germans out.

True. But same with Korea and the Americans. I think American forces are still present there in large numbers (could be wrong about this though).

The U.S. still has several bases in South Korea; I servered their for a while when I was in the Army. Cheers.

[connorkimbro]

the US currently has about 35,000 Army soldiers stationed on the penninsula. I couldn't give numbers for marines or air force or navy service members.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by connorkimbro
the US currently has about 35,000 Army soldiers stationed on the penninsula. I couldn't give numbers for marines or air force or navy service members.

This is an a-side, Kimbro, but I noticed you listed the Defense Language Institute as your location. Which langauge are you studying? Korean?

[Boliao]

Wow! I’ve been reading this thread every single argument, every fact, for 3 solid hours…. I really admire Yin for the fact that he can hold his argument well without hasty generalizations like Mark and Imran, who come across as western centric people.

I’ve learned so many things…

1)For arguments in a I-write-u-read type of media like a forum, in order to succeed one must not debase into senseless hurling of vulgarity and abuse without logic. I admire Yin for your cool handling of many posts without basis or facts but containing just pure unreasonable words like *&^%$#@….

2)My knowledge of Korea is boostered, so is knowledge of Holland, or Iceland for that matter.

3)Many times when I have came across Euro-centric Asian Bashing stances from Mark, I am tempted to post an angry reply, but I realized that an angry reply probably would not hold water, and would make one sound boorish and illogical. Then I tell myself, “let’s read on to what Yin has to say to that”. Before I know it I am at the end of 9 pages of the thread.

4)I am not Korean. And I am not anti- “any civ”. At first glance I thought Yin was a korean defending his homeland, then as I read on I found out that he is 100% white American, he has no reason to be called ‘Nationalistic’, in fact I think he has a good position being non-ethnic Korean to make these statements. I am sure no one disagrees

5)I think I have to be fair to those in Europe and the west as well that each of us are shaped differently according to the version of history we are taught. I do not know much about Byzantine History as much as say Mark, but from the experience my grandparents had with the Japanese, I can tell you what Yin said regarding atrocities etc is fairly accurate.

My granddad testified to the beheadings, the senseless bayoneting of pregnant women, throwing infants to the air and bayoneting them as target practice (He did not mention a popular torture method such as sticking a hose into a person’s throat and pumpin water till he is bloated then bayonetting the chap, but that is just details of gore.)

The experience of those in Singapore (the far end of the Japanese empire) does not differ much from those many miles in Korea. It was a universal atrocity, not just on Koreans and Chinese. One should consider the background of the person making the comment then he will realize the context.

6)People who think that the above is not important are those who do not have relatives who had experienced it first hand, or themselves have not had the experience. Thus it is understandable why a Jew might still hate a German even today, it is relative to the person’s experience and we cannot simple ignore that. Like wise if you had relatives who perished in the sept 11 incident, it would be very insensitive of me to brush it aside like how a person might brush aside the sufferings of someone who lived under the Japanese occupation. It is all relative. However certain things cannot be compared. You cannot say “The Nazi treatment of Jews can be compared to how the Vikings killed innocent people during their raids” It must be in context. Mass killing of civilians in an inhumane way is different from killing for conquest.

7) I really hope that when we do argue we do not include words like “****ing” or “you are an a$$”. It will not help you win the argument in anyway. In fact it will sway others to the other more rationale party like I switched from supporting Mark ( The first few posts were done rationally and were convincing..! I respect your(Mark’s) background as a philo student, then when you made the sweeping statement that Asian philosophy is nothing comparable to western, you lost a supporter. Not that I think Asian philo is superior to Western in any way)

8) I hope future posts will be done intelligently and not “because I am Korean I will fight all those who slam my country” type of post. I mean if its all based on insult and not reasoning, no one will believe you.

That’s all I got to say. As for which civ should be in, I think Korea is not in because Civ3 is made in the west ( as Yin pointed out) so its ok, no problem with that as it is a matter of perspective. I too am learning not to look at the other side of the world through tainted glasses.

[Boliao]

Wow! I’ve been reading this thread every single argument, every fact, for 3 solid hours…. I really admire Yin for the fact that he can hold his argument well without hasty generalizations like Mark and Imran, who come across as western centric people.

I’ve learned so many things…

1)For arguments in a I-write-u-read type of media like a forum, in order to succeed one must not debase into senseless hurling of vulgarity and abuse without logic. I admire Yin for your cool handling of many posts without basis or facts but containing just pure unreasonable words like *&^%$#@….

2)My knowledge of Korea is boostered, so is knowledge of Holland, or Iceland for that matter.

3)Many times when I have came across Euro-centric Asian Bashing stances from Mark, I am tempted to post an angry reply, but I realized that an angry reply probably would not hold water, and would make one sound boorish and illogical. Then I tell myself, “let’s read on to what Yin has to say to that”. Before I know it I am at the end of 9 pages of the thread.

4)I am not Korean. And I am not anti- “any civ”. At first glance I thought Yin was a korean defending his homeland, then as I read on I found out that he is 100% white American, he has no reason to be called ‘Nationalistic’, in fact I think he has a good position being non-ethnic Korean to make these statements. I am sure no one disagrees

[Boliao]

5)I think I have to be fair to those in Europe and the west as well that each of us are shaped differently according to the version of history we are taught. I do not know much about Byzantine History as much as say Mark, but from the experience my grandparents had with the Japanese, I can tell you what Yin said regarding atrocities etc is fairly accurate.

My granddad testified to the beheadings, the senseless bayoneting of pregnant women, throwing infants to the air and bayoneting them as target practice (He did not mention a popular torture method such as sticking a hose into a person’s throat and pumpin water till he is bloated then bayonetting the chap, but that is just details of gore.)

The experience of those in Singapore (the far end of the Japanese empire) does not differ much from those many miles in Korea. It was a universal atrocity, not just on Koreans and Chinese. One should consider the background of the person making the comment then he will realize the context.

6)People who think that the above is not important are those who do not have relatives who had experienced it first hand, or themselves have not had the experience. Thus it is understandable why a Jew might still hate a German even today, it is relative to the person’s experience and we cannot simple ignore that. Like wise if you had relatives who perished in the sept 11 incident, it would be very insensitive of me to brush it aside like how a person might brush aside the sufferings of someone who lived under the Japanese occupation. It is all relative. However certain things cannot be compared. You cannot say “The Nazi treatment of Jews can be compared to how the Vikings killed innocent people during their raids” It must be in context. Mass killing of civilians in an inhumane way is different from killing for conquest.

7) I really hope that when we do argue we do not include words like “****ing” or “you are an a$$”. It will not help you win the argument in anyway. In fact it will sway others to the other more rationale party like I switched from supporting Mark ( The first few posts were done rationally and were convincing..! I respect your(Mark’s) background as a philo student, then when you made the sweeping statement that Asian philosophy is nothing comparable to western, you lost a supporter. Not that I think Asian philo is superior to Western in any way)

8) I hope future posts will be done intelligently and not “because I am Korean I will fight all those who slam my country” type of post. I mean if its all based on insult and not reasoning, no one will believe you.

That’s all I got to say. As for which civ should be in, I think Korea is not in because Civ3 is made in the west ( as Yin pointed out) so its ok, no problem with that as it is a matter of perspective. I too am learning not to look at the other side of the world through tainted glasses.

[Boliao]

sorry made a double post..pls forgive me

[Drake Tungsten]

First, Korean is the basis for the Japanese language.

I can't believe something this false slipped through the cracks! The truth about the Japanese language is that no one knows where it came from. It is one of the great mysteries of linguistic research. Korean is considered a relative of the Japanese language, but there are huge differences between the two that can't be explained and definitely show that Japanese was not based on Korean. The whole debate is actually pretty interesting, as both Korean and Japanese are thought to be most closely related to Finnish or various Turkic languages. Strange...

Even if Yin was referring to written Japanese, the characters used in Japanese are of Chinese origin and the syllabary is a native invention. The Chinese kanji probably spread to Japan through Korea, but were in no way a Korean invention. Just wanted to clear that up....

[Mou]

The Chinese kanji probably spread to Japan through Korea, but were in no way a Korean invention.

I do NOT think so. Chinese culture ,including Kanji, were introduced to Japenese systematically by those abroard students in about one hundred years after 646 AD, who were dispatched by Japenese govenment, at that time China is in Sui & Tang Dynasty.

Remember, the kanji is only "A Japanese system of writing based on borrowed or modified Chinese characters."

And it is so interesting that the typical sentence structures of Japenese and Korean are BOTH "subject + object +verb", dislike Chinese "subject + verb + object".