The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[easy]

Yin26, I've some question about your data. As I checked from

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

There is only 47.5 million people in South Korea but you said the
population in Soul is 21.4 million. Almost half of the country
population is in one city? That's really unbelievable.

[yin26]

There is only 47.5 million people in South Korea but you said the population in Soul is 21.4 million. Almost half of the country population is in one city? That's really unbelievable.

Yes. It is pretty amazing. Seoul City and the government has tried many things to spread out the population more. For example, they have built kind of suburb areas with ultra-modern apartments, etc. It has only marginally worked.

The problem is that S.Korea's landmass is rather small, especially after the division. And since Seoul was the capital for centuries, virtually all governmental and educational and work-related stuff goes on here. There are some exceptions...shipping in Pusan, for example, but mainly: "If you want to succeed, go to Seoul." That has been the way of thinking.

By the way, I'm amazed you caught that detail!

[yin26]

Imran:

If you talk to Chinese and Koreans, Japanese actions in this region during the 19th and 20th centuries were horrid. Certainly you are aware of some of them, yes? If not, I'll gladly provide the details.

This means that Japan has NOT been a very good neighbor. Is that "bad"? Well, yes, it is. Memories are not that short, after all, and there are a number of issues yet to be resolved before China and Korea truly respect Japan...if ever. Clearly this does not help the region.

What you admire, of course, was their resourcefulness. But think of Pearl Harbor. An amazing feat, to be sure. In some ways, a brilliant tactical decision. But look at what happened in the end. Hiroshima and Nagasaki turned to ash.

So, Japan's imperialism has only brought pain to this region and eventually back onto itself. When it has used its advantages to market superior products, however, nobody can question their value to the region and the world.

But I tell you this: There is a painting somewhat famous here in Korea. It shows three images. One is of a single Japanese person who has a huge smile on his face. The next is of a Japanese person in a small group with really no expression. The last is of Japanese in a large group with a look like a demon. In general, Koreans feel that Japanese one on one are amazingly polite...in a small group, rather flat...and as a nation, not to be trusted.

Is that bad? I think so. You, however, might admire that about them.

[YefeiPi]

Imran, first please spell my name correctly when referring to me. I mean my nick is not even 7 letters long and you mispelled the first five!

Yefi, so you are saying the Japanese are bad because of that?

It seems like a VERY intelligent move by the Japanese to turn on the Chinese, and take much of the rich provinces. The Japanese have ALWAYS been a culture that takes from other cultures and then improves on it. What it has done is 1900 is a great example. It industrialized faster than any nation EVER and now is the nation with the 2nd largest GDP in the world. It's Golden Age is either the 1930s or 1980s, and it made the most of it.

If Korea was included in the original game, I'd set out looking for a mod pack to replace them with the Japanese.

Intelligent move by the Japanese? NO! Oh I know, maybe because you haven't personally experienced or even heard of the pain and suffering the japs had done to other Asians. You still don't know why Japan is hated by so many people in Asia, do you? It's because not only they take land but the way they kill people! They gang rape pregnant women and slice their stomachs for their own perverted sexual pleasures, actually I won't get into detail of what they did because those acts are just inhuman and shame to human civilzation, hell, not even animals behave like the Jap soldiers during WW.

How did you think Japan got its economy going when it was so poor after it lost WWII? The money and wealth they looted from China, Korea and other Asian countries alone practically jump started their economy! You actually think they started from scratch? Everything Japan has ever achieved, it's always based on someone else's resources or knowledge. A pitiful shame if you ask me.

[yin26]

YefeiPi:

Let's see if these following pictures don't help people like Imran understand the truth a bit better. Of course, he might just say: "Hey, that's war. Get over it." These are from the Nanjing Massacre: 300,000 Chinese People Killed, 20,000 Women Raped. For people's sake here, I have not used the IMG tag. Click on these at your own risk.

Pile of severed heads (men and women): http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/head1.jpg

Young boy about to be beheaded: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/behead.jpg

Japanese leaving their 'message' after raping a woman: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/rape2.jpg

Woman gutted after being raped: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/rape4.jpg

Pile of dead babies: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/babies.jpg

Happy soldier posing with severed head: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/heads.jpg

So, Imran, if you would like to see Japan in Civ 3, more power to you. Just remember these pictures when some exotic notion of an honorable, advanced nation comes to mind. The pile of babies and gutted woman are particularly impressive. Yes. Put them in Civ 3!

Japan was built on top of those heads, raped women and dead babies.

[yin26]

As for the Japanese war criminals sentenced after WW2:

Joseph Keenan, the chief prosecutor representing the United States at the trial, issued a press statement along with the indictment: ".. it is high time ... that the promoters of aggressive, ruthless war and treaty-breakers should be stripped of the glamour of national heroes and exposed as what they really are --- plain, ordinary murderers."

The charges:

The indictment accused the defendants of promoting a scheme of conquest that "contemplated and carried out ... murdering, maiming and ill-treating prisoners of war (and) civilian internees ... forcing them to labor under inhumane conditions ... plundering public and private property, wantonly destroying cities, towns and villages beyond any justification of military necessity; (perpetrating) mass murder, rape, pillage, brigandage, torture and other barbaric cruelties upon the helpless civilian population of the over-run countries."

Japan's top leaders still visit the graves of these convicted criminals despite being asked not to by China and Korea. Japan, however, sees only 'glorious' victory as inspired by a divine mandate. Hmmm. Glorious indeed.

[Jeje2]

Lighten up, please

OK,
just read the first message in this thread and had the feeling of reading an presidential election speach (Well written)

Now, then to facts...
First, Several countries has had Olympics (Even Finland).
And the reason why Korea is the biggest shipbuilder are huge fundings by taxmoney, thus killing westeuropean (and Finnish) shipyards.

Moving on to Vikings:
- Yes they are mostly known for destruction, but they did commerse too.
- They were the explorers.
* With rivers through Russia to Black Sea
* Along the costline to France, England etc.
* They discovered America some time before Columbus did
- Yes they faded away finally, just like Rome

This said I do think that why not have Korea?
I like the description for Korea, that Yin made.
(It has potential to be a fun choice of play.)

To me it's not mearly about who deserves to be in the game. Sure there are some must-be-groups, but after that I think that the rest should be different types of nations. (So some militaristic, some researching, some religious, etc...)



P.S. Yin: What made you move to Korea in the first place? Apereantly it's having bad side-effects on you.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

Japan was built on top of those heads, raped women and dead babies.

This is ridiculous. You are so blinded by your championing of Korea that you can't look at anything objectively.

Japan is no more guilty of atrocities than any other "great" civilization. Any form of warfare is by definition an atrocity. Just to mention a few examples, China has slaughtered millions with the cultural revolution, the Americans had slavery and slaughtered the Native Americans, the Germans during the Hitler era I need not mention the details, etc. etc.

Are you going to argue that Korea is not guilty of any brutality? Until only recently South Korea was ruled by corruption with an "elected" president thanks to rigged ballots. Did the political prisoners have a fun time? Even now, under the new Nobel Peace Prize winning president there are still political prisoners not freed.

Should I even mention North Korea? Or I guess with your blindness they don't count. I guess they're not Korean?

Your denigration of Japan is just as racist and repugnant as the worst that they have done and are now doing. In the end, we are all human, and all humans are capable of atrocities as well as kindness or great achievements.

[yin26]

My point is that by comparison (as I have said many times in this thread), one of the OUTSTANDING things about the Korean nation is that is has had very little of what you are talking about with China and Japan.

I realize my last statement about Japan was a bit of trolling, but only a bit. Modern Japan WAS built on those things. The fact that other countries did the same or worse is irrelevant. What IS relevant in this thread is Korea.

Korea has NEVER attacked outside its borders (at least not since the time it was clear what the borders were). Korea has NEVER massacred OTHER people's citizens.

Yes, Korea has been brutal on its own people at times. But compared to what has happened in China, it's statistically almost non-existent. Yes, Korea did execute foreigners (particularly missionaries) during its "hermit" phase, and that way of thinking is in part responsible for what caused Korea's decline in the 19th century.

So I will repeat: Korea's primarily peaceful way of development over the centuries is amazing. China's human rights violations are not in question. And as I have pointed out, Japan's atrocities are A MILLION TIMES worse than anything Korea ever did to its own people.

Japan is still considered a pariah by many in Asia. Sorry if that bothers you. Look at the pictures again to understand why.

[yin26]

Your denigration of Japan is just as racist and repugnant as the worst that they have done and are now doing.

I don't think you understand those words. "Racism" has nothing to do with it. The evidence is clear enough: The Japanese brought upon the Asian region some of the most horric atrocities ever seen by man. A number of the leaders were found to be war criminals of the highest degree.

"repugnant as the worst they have done"

Now you are really losing your mind. Yes. My putting before you in words and images the cold brutality of Imperialistic Japan is as repugnant as a gutted woman and a pile of babies. Try again, friend.

Do those facts bother you? Ignore them then, if that is more comfortable to you. And does it bother you that modern Japan WAS built on the blood of its neighbors? If so, twist history and use words like "racist" recklessly.

Still won't change the truth.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

So I will repeat: Korea's primarily peaceful way of development over the centuries is amazing.

Japan is still considered a pariah by many in Asia. Sorry if that bothers you. Look at the pictures again to understand why.

No, it's not amazing. You can't conquer anyone else when you're too busy defending yourself from China and Japan.

And it doesn't bother me. The U.S. is considered a pariah by almost the rest of the world. That's what happens when you're one of the most powerful cultures. That's just the way it is.

[yin26]

That's what happens when you're one of the most powerful cultures. That's just the way it is.

The notable stains of slavery and killing off American Indians aside, the U.S. is amazing historically precisely for NOT doing the kinds of things like Japan did. I juse heard a scholar recently saying that it is simply amazing that a country as powerful as the U.S. has NOT gone on a rampage. The U.S. is considered a pariah by many NOT for being powerful but for being ignorant and imperious.

But at least you admit your bias: You like "powerful" civs. And by "powerful," you mean able to rape and behead people with virtual impunity until the world courts hunt you down or until an atomic bomb drops on you in desperation. Hey, "that's just the way it is." Cool.

Maybe you could make a mod and use some of the images up there everytime you attack China with Japan?

DISCLAIMER: Lest other people think I have lost my mind, I realize Civ 3 is a GAME. What we are talking about here, however, is history...and the importance of not forgetting it when you praise or detract from a nation.

[yin26]

Jeje:

I like the description for Korea, that Yin made.
(It has potential to be a fun choice of play.)

Thanks. I think it would be a lot of fun...even if we have to mod it to make it work. And you are right, the decision to include a civ should be based on 1) representing civs somewhat evenly around the world and 2) making them fun to play.

[yin26]

As for North Korea, they are perhaps the last bastion of "pure" Communism on earth. Even then, they have the first 'Dynastic Communism' in history, which unfortunately has led to untold starvation and human rights violations.

Yes, North Koreans are Koreans. They are Koreans setup by the Russians to be a Communistic buffer against the South. They are a nation unto themselves. If you like to be technical, go back and please edit all my posts that refer to Korea after the division and make sure it says "SOUTH Korea." Thanks.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

But at least you admit your bias: You like "powerful" civs. And by "powerful," you mean able to rape and behead people with virtual impunity until the world courts hunt you down or until an atomic bomb drops on you in desperation. Hey, "that's just the way it is." Cool.

Huh? Where did I ever say this? If I like brutality, then why did I criticize the Koreans for doing the same thing?

This debate is getting nowhere, and I will say no more. Read the thread "Will people ever stop bickering with each other?" to better understand what I think of humanity and so-called "civilization".

And BTW, I am Korean-American. Bet you never thought that, did you? But I don't try to identify myself as being a part of any culture, but of course you can never escape it entirely. I just try my best to just look at myself as being part of the whole human race.