The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have to agree with MarkL on civ inclusion..

I'd put Arabs, Spanish, Incas, Mongols, Vikings, Carthaginians, and the Italians ahead of Korea.

[yin26]

Yes, yes. That is the canned response. Care to defend your choices, though? Mongols? Why? Because of mass invasions. What else?...and where are they now? Vikings basically fit that bill as well. Incas? They accomplished nothing greater than did the Koreans...AND where are they now?

If you were to actually sit down and compare any of those to Korea, you wouldn't be putting them first...trust me. However, if those conjure some kind of nostalgic feeling for civs that were powerful for a time and are now all but erased from the earth, feel free.

I would think, though, a "great" civ would have somehow managed to survive into the 21st century, eh? If you want to look at dead civs that did great things, that is fine. But why over-look a LIVING civ that DID and CONTINUES to do great things?

Alas, romantic and spotty history...

[yin26]

By the way, I still understand that Civ3 is primarily a western game for western gamers. Thus, it should reflect the western "take" on history (the facts be damned).

[yin26]

Just some quick perspective on the Mongols:

It is noteworthy that the Mongols as a unified people did not exist as a political reality until the advent of Chingis Khan.

So, while Korea was busy inventing the printing press, the Mongols barely even existed.

The year 1206: The Founder and Father of the Mongol nation, Temuchin, who took the name Chingis Khan, emerged as the "leader of all people living in felt tents."

O.K. Looks like we have the beginning of a long and glorious civ in this Khan fellow...

The Mongols were completely expelled from China by 1382 and soon thereafter lapsed into relative obscurity.

Ooops. Guess not. So, the Mongols were on the historical map from 1206 to 1382. WOW! And, of course, I'd list all their great inventions...but I can't seem to find any.

There is really only ONE justifiable reason why people want the Mongols in Civ3: Because under ONE man and for a very short time they were the scariest thing on earth, eating up land at will. Sure, what civ player wouldn't want that image in their minds as the leader of their civ?

But we are talking barely a blink in the eye of history with the Mongols, and virtually NO (any) contribution they made to mankind that benefits us today. Sure...take them for fantasy of the mind but do NOT place them above Korea in terms of historical significance.

[yin26]

And the Vikings:

With their invention of the longship, the Vikings spurred a literal sea change in medieval European affairs.

That has merit. Of course, the first iron-clad ship invented by Koreans has substantial merit itself.

Viking, also called NORSEMAN, or NORTHMAN, member of the Scandinavian seafaring warriors who raided and colonized wide areas of Europe from the 9th to the 11th century and whose disruptive influence profoundly affected European history. The Viking Age is traditionally defined as beginning with the attack by scandinavian raiders on the Monastery of Lindisfarne on the north coast of England in (June) 793 (though there were other raids earlier) and ending with the failure of the Norse invasion of England and the death of King Harald Hardrathi at the Battle of Stamford Bridge on September 25, 1066 just before the Battle of Hastings. Individual areas of study may use slightly different time periods

Again, note the relative BREVITY of their existence! Korean history goes back to B.C. and still continues, will all kinds of inventions and history along the way. Also note that the Viking's influence, as with the Mongols, was primarily "DISRUPTIVE".

No description made by the contemporaries of the Vikings gives exact or detailed information of their society. The whole conception must be gathered from small pieces of information: runic stones, archeological findings and literal sources. The law texts that have been considered as reliable sources of evidence are, however, inaccurate, since in many cases they were written after the event.

Hmmm. So really all we know about the Vikings is that made some awesome ships and made their name over a few centuries by ransaking places...and then faded away.

Again, I ask you: Why the Vikings over the Koreas? Certainly it has NOTHING to do with the relative 'quality' of the civ's cultural contributions to the world or its longevity. What it has EVERYTHING to do with, however, is this:

Vikings! The word conjures up image of wild, barbaric, sea faring men, intent on setting their mark on their less warlike neighbours with fire and sword. From the land of ice and giants, they swept across Europe like a forest fire raping, pillaging and destroying all in their path.

Like I said, this is fine and good for an image in Civ 3. I'm not against the Mongols or the Vikings in Civ. But let's just be clear what we are thinking of when we talk about putting them before Korea. We are talking about putting civs with a very short but horribly brutal history of destruction over a civ STILL in existence that has made serveral amazing inventions, survived nearly 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years AND maintains an important place in the world today.

So, if people want to tell me: "I prefer the Mongols and Vikings for that 'kick a$$ feeling I get when I plunder another civ," that's totally fine by me. Just realize that in terms of cultural 'merit,' Korea has it all over either of them.

[Sun Zi 36]

I wouldn't put the Mongols or Vikings b4 the Koreans. I would rather regard the Mongols and Vikings as really strong barbarians (if the barbarians are strong enough in civ3). If you are playing an East Asian game then yes, I would include Korea as a civilization. But in a world game, the Korean civilization just isn't distinct enough from the Chinese and Japanese to be regarded as a civilization. So the Incans are a VERY distinct civilization.

Yes, you would argue that the difference between the French and Germans would probably be similar to the difference between Korean and China or Japan. But then the French and the Germans qualify as a great civilization more than the Koreans. And I don't just mean in terms of colonization and conquest and stuff. In terms of scientific, idealistc achievements etc. (eg the French revolution).

[YefeiPi]

Actually, we agree. But you must keep in mind that the West PERCEIVES China to be a serious military threat. Certainly they did what they wanted to (for the most part) with the US spy plane, for instance. And nobody can look at their population and say: "Hey, let's ignore them." And the Chinese DO like to bully. A common saying heard here in Korea, for example, comes from the Chinese: "If we all took a leak on Korea, we could drown it in a yellow sea."

Yin, I'm not talking about modern day China, because it is not doing nearly as well as it was before. Also the population of the Chinese is a factor to be feared of, however, it isn't what China is all about. It's about thousands and thousands of years of civilization, technological breakthroughs and influence.

As being a Chinese myself, your quote of "If we all took a leak on Korea, we could drown it in a yellow sea" is never heard of. And I'm sure you are probably not Chinese, so please do double check your quote.

Korea's history, although ancient, really did have too much impact on history and i'm not saying other civs which are supposed to be included are worthy. Korea and Japan in the ancient times, if you know history very well, were very Chinese like because of China's immense influence all over Asia, not in Europe because it isn't that developed yet. Did you know that Chinese used to be the official language of Korea? And Japanese as well? That's why Japan still have Chinese characters in their writing language and added a bunch of their own because they tried to differ themselves as an independent nation. Korea did the same thing, it has developed its language as well.

So all in all, with Korea's invention of first moveable printing press, turtle boat, and other impressive things, it just didn't have too much influence and impact on history's development. Then again, I believe many other civs other people suggested are not worthy either.


P.S I would rather choose Korea to replace Japanese at any time.

[YefeiPi]

I also disagree with the point that China could conquer the world if it bothered to. Emperor Yang Guang of the Sui dynasty failed to even conquer Korea with three expeditions. And the effort he put in to conquer Korea was enormous. So enormous and disturbing to the society that it caused the collapsed of the Sui dynasty. In fact it is the reverse. The Chinese failed to resist invasion by outside cultures many times (during the turbulent years of around AD200-AD600, during the Sung period, the Mongols, and the Manchus) even though it bothered to resist.

Well, you can't say Sui dynasty is even close to China's peak, it is just a period of time where China was reunified, no major achievements really during that time of period. Conquering Korea could not have been difficult during the Tang and Sung, after all, sure the Koreans would have fought bravely, but the military might of China at that time can probably crush any country easily. Also the fact the Yuan dynasty, in which the mongols ruled, even as barbaric as they were, they still respected the Chinese immensely, and had all the top officials be Chinese because mongols knew only they had the ability to govern well. Ghenghis Khan, believe it or not, spoke fluent Chinese, and was very much assimilated into the Chinese culture.

Now onto Manchu dynasty, (or the qing dynasty, not qin), the manchus are not foreign as the mongols as all! In fact, they are the Chinese! China has 56 minority groups with Han being the main group, Manchu was one of the 56 minority groups but they are just as Chinese as the Hans except for some unique traditions. So you can't say that Manchu dynasty was foreign governed at all!

I would personally believe that China, in the past, had been extremely glorious and mighty. However, the nation had been in toil since the end of Manchu dynasty because of isolationist beliefs and generally cut off from the rest of the world. I do believe China has a very bright future, the past glory will once again return to the motherland where proud billions of people were, are, and will be nourished.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, yes. That is the canned response. Care to defend your choices, though? Mongols? Why? Because of mass invasions. What else?...and where are they now? Vikings basically fit that bill as well. Incas? They accomplished nothing greater than did the Koreans...AND where are they now?

Because for a brief, shining moment, they were the most feared civilizations in the world. The Mongols have had, to this day, the largest land empire EVER in the history of the world. They threatened Europe! They are responsible for a lot of the problems that developed in the Muslim world, after they razed Muslim centers of learning to the ground.

The Vikings are another group that inspired fears into their respective area. They ransacked much of today's United Kingdom, and even went as far south as in the Mediterranean, and were known as some of the most fearsome invaders in European history.

The Mongols and Vikings (as well as the Incas) have their own unique brand of culture. The Mongols, while influenced heavily by the Chinese had a nomadic, barbaric culture which would be very unique in Civ3 if they were to be added. The Vikings were a great seafaring nation, which a unique culture of their own (Viking Skalds, for example). The Incas, of course, are unique themselves, which interesting cultural quirks that no Civ in Civ3 (closest being the Aztecs) really represents.

The Koreans? As pointed out above. Their culture really didn't differ ALL that much from China or Japan. It is kind of like claiming, IMO, that the Celts should be included.

[yin26]

Because for a brief, shining moment, they were the most feared civilizations in the world.

O.K. I understand this reasoning. Although I think using the term 'civilization' for them is being kind.

I would rather choose Korea to replace Japanese at any time.

AGREED! Unfotunately, most people in the West are not really taught the difference between China, Korea and Japan. Korea, for now, is the forgotten one.

But in a world game, the Korean civilization just isn't distinct enough from the Chinese and Japanese to be regarded as a civilization.

I think your wording is off here a bit. There is no doubting that Korea was and is an impressive civilization. But, I agree with your general idea that when the West looks at the Far East, "China and Japan" immediately come to mind. And if you have to pick ONE for the game, China is the best choice.

But as I have argued, Japan was way ahead of Japan until the late 19th, early 20th century, at which point Korea was making the fateful decision to bury its head in the sand and not deal with the West. I predict, however, by the end of the 21st century, Korea will surpass Japan in world standing...and a great resurgance in understanding its history will become standard in the United States and other countries around the world.

So, by Civ8, I think the place of Korea in the game will be taken for granted. I'm just giving you guys all a sneak preview.

[YefeiPi]

This game is developed by Sid Meier, an american, so of course more civs are located in the west.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There is no doubting that Korea was and is an impressive civilization.

I meant as a Civilization (the game) civilization. In that respect the cultural differences between Korea vs. China and Japan are too slight for them to be considered over, say... the Mongols or Vikings or Incas, who's civs are vastly different culturally than anything else out there.

I think that is the main reason the Iriqouis are included in the game (I'd rather they be replaced with Incas).

The arguments for Korea to be included in the game, seem somewhat similar for arguments to include the Austrians or the Polish in the game (more similar to the argument for Poland to be included).

[ruckus9]

Now I wanna read about Korean history!!

Hi this is my first time posting on Apolyton but I've been browsing the Civ 3 forums for a little while now and i just couldn't resist reading this thread. I didn't plan on posting anything but I just have to compliment yin26 on all that great information about the Korean civilization. I didn't know Koreans did all of that! Especially about Koreans inventing the moveable type printing press 200 years earlier. As a Korean American I'm taught alot about "western civilization" and I'm glad to see that Koreans have accomplished alot too and are not just shadows of Japan or China. From firsthand experience I know that Koreans are very different from the Chinese or Japanese and I am annoyed that many people stereotype Korean culture as just a Chinese or Japanes knock-off. Personally I want the Koreans in Civ 3 and I would definitely play with them. I guess I am biased but it's just my opinion.

[Saint Marcus]

Yin...you have made some very nice arguments. And you've partially convinced me. Korea's inventions of the Ironclad and Printin Press were amazing.

Howerever, and here lies the big problem, it didn't have much influence on the world. Did the Koreans use their Ironclads to conquer their neighbours? Did (m)any other nations copy their design? No and no. Did the Korean Printing Press revolutionise the world? Also no. The German/Dutch printing press did though.

The point is, it isn't about scientific discoveries or a long lasting culture. The civs in Civ3 are chosen because they, for at least a short period of time, had a HUGE influence on the world.

Ok, we all now the Iroquis and Zulus don't qualify, but the other 14 surely do. As do the Vikings, Mongols, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, Italians, Arabs, Ottomans, Carthagians, Phoenicians, Incas, etc. The Koreans do not. Neither do the Zulus, Iroquis, Ethiopians, Khmer, etc. Their impact is but a footnote in the annals of world history. That doesn't mean that they didn't achieve some marvelous things though.

[yin26]

ruckus9

Hey, I encourage you to read Korean history! In fact, it is one of the "up and coming" areas in academia today. A number of Korean Studies departments are starting to open up, but there aren't enough people qualified yet to meet the demand. In other words, you could make a nice career out of helping universities correct the errors/gaps in their Asian history departments, etc.

In NO way was Korea a Chinese or Japanese knockoff. Yes, Korea used Chinese CHARACTERS for academic purposes (and thus 70% of its vocabulary can be traced to Chinese characters), but Korea ALWAYS had its own language and eventually found the Chinese system so unruly and so unfitting to their own tongue that they invented their own writing system...considered perhaps the best ever devised.

As for Japan, there was very little on those islands before KOREA influenced and even sent people there. For a long, long time Japan depended on Korea for its advancements. Pottery is a good example. But, as I've pointed out, Korea decided to close its doors just as Japan was being infused with Western techs...and to this day Korea is suffering from that lack of foresight, but the lesson seems to have been learned.