No Spanish Civ????

[kittenOFchaos]

Well, I´ve played ALL the spanish civ2 site spain scenarios (good fun they were too!) and I still consider the spanish not so much a civilisation but a menace to civilised peoples (historically).

I would confess though to have been teasing you all thoroughly as I too see no reason for the 16 civs to have the iroquois and americans...

BEFORE THEM should be the Incas and the Spanish...the mongols I´m praying are a barbarian people that pop up in the middle-ages in a major continental area.


As to the realism arguement in civ3...get real...the transition egyptians to arabs etc is EXTREMELY difficult (if not impossible to create without railroading the game down a set path)...

P.S checked the cathedrael out in Granada...everytime I go to spain I get taken to cathedraels...YAWN...Barcelona´s were the best by far (Gaudi)...but that isn´t really Spain, that is Catalonia (soon to be fully independent? already it has got 30 percent spending control of taxes collected there, and has demanded 100 percent control...they feel that they shouldn´t have to support the poverty elsewhere in Spain -Seville and her 40 percent unemployment etc).

[Waku]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
...everytime I go to spain I get taken to cathedraels...

c'mon! you were too drunk!!!
That's what all the brits do in their holydays in Spain.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Now look who is missing what games in general are all about. Go make your stupid perfect realism mods, LoTM, and don't bother those of us who go for great games no matter what the genre is. You may be a dry history buff who wants to play a game to simulate your intensely boring and repetitive dreams, fine. Don't foist your crap on the rest of us. Puh-lease.

What games are all about? I was playing historical strategy games 25 years, ago, snap. Were you? games can serve different purposes, and can be fun in different ways. Im sure Starcraft is a great game, and i dont begrudge those who like that kind of game. But do all games need to be the same? shouldnt their features depend on what they are about? Does chess need unique protagonists? Does monopoly? Im trying to get at what CIV is about, not what games in general are about. Im not trying to make civ like a grognard historically accurate game, just trying to keep those historical features that seem essential to CIv, in my opinion.

Im also sorry you find history dry. Its actually fascinating, loads of fun. And no, I dont have intensely boring or repetitive dreams.

And no Im not interested in "stupid mods" I am interested in historical scenarios, one of the most interesting aspects of Civ2. And im rapidly losing interest in playing a features turned off version of Civ3. If this cursing and anger and disdain for history is what the Civ3 community is becoming, I doubt there is a place for me in it.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Harlan
.

Not so for some of the civs Civ3 decided to include. The Zulus? Please. I don't know what Snapcase was smoking when he said they "subjugated an area the size of Western Europe, with a population of millions". The modern country of South Africa is about twice the size of France, and Shaka Zulu only conquered a portion of that in his whopping 12 years of power.

Perhaps this gives some idea of snap's concern for history:

"You may be a dry history buff who wants to play a game to simulate your intensely boring and repetitive dreams, fine. Don't foist your crap on the rest of us. Puh-lease. "

LOTM
Increasingly disillusioned with the future of the Civ franchise

[Jay Bee]

LOTM, me too. Not to tell about the present

[Alfonsus71]

I agree JayBee, Spanish civilization should appear in any small report about human history, Spain controlled more than 40% of world land (some could say is an small part) for 3 centuries (some could say is a short time), but most important: It was the first Nation-State of the world (with France and Britain, centuries befoer Germany); it was the only empire that has a purpose (Spanish empire was to expand catholicism in the name of God and the Pope, and many spanish missionaries were out and died only for their religious believes, can you find other examples of that in other empires among history?); spanish arts and literature are unparalel; and its language, culture and influence is present in more than 500 million people, in 5 continents. Only 1 other empire in history, the british, have had lands in the 5 continents.

About why Spain is out of the game, or why people in this forum had said such things like "they were not a civilization", "they were a menace to civilization", "they were plunderers",... I think that´s because the anglo-saxon world has been at war with Spain for a very long time, and they had developed such propaganda in that very long war that still today many english and americans are unable to recognize the greatness of Spain. Many people still thinks (see any pirates film) that corsairs (whose job was to stole, kill, rape, ....) were good guys, while their spanish victims were bad only for being spanish. The ominious film "Amistad" from Spielberg showed an spanish ship with slaves and showed Spain as an slavish state, when slavery was prohibited in Spain since the XV century, and colonial slavery only progressed due to local corruption and disobedience to peninsular spanish laws.

But most important of that. Many have said that spain have plunder many civs like incas, aztecs,... But that civs or tribes were converted to catholicism, they mixed with spanish people, and now they still survive, and their cultural legacy, and more important, their people still are alive. Where are the iroqueses, sioux, pueblo, apaches, seminolas, maories, ... and all the other civs and tribes that had the bad luck of having contact with the english colonizers?. Do yo know any case of an english man or woman married with a native?. NO, they were a racist empire, and their only purpose was to plunder, kill and stingish older civilizations to expoil their natural resources, they had no interest in religion, conversion or something so. But ironically they are seem as the good now, and spain, american indians and others are the bad, simply cause they won and we lost. Think about it.

[Jay Bee]

dp

[Jay Bee]

Alfonsus,

Let it go, I think we have already made our point. Look at the number of spin-off threads this one has generated BTW, what are you waiting for to visit the Spanish Civ Site Forum?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Alfonsus71
it was the only empire that has a purpose (Spanish empire was to expand catholicism in the name of God and the Pope, and many spanish missionaries were out and died only for their religious believes, can you find other examples of that in other empires among history?);

While I agree that Spain should be included as a great civilisation, I fail to appreciate the reason while that particular "purpose" of the Spanish empire distinguises it so much from the English who were "civilizing the savages", Russians who were "uniting the Slavic lands and brining the communist freedom to opressed workers" or Germans who were "seeking the live space and purity of arian race".

[Simon Loverix]

Another good thing to say about the Spanish: They were very early to have a proto-parliament (the cortès), 1200 AD or something.

And empires have only one purpose: being the fattest, biggest and meanest around.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by Alfonsus71
...they were a racist empire, and their only purpose was to plunder, kill and stingish older civilizations to expoil their natural resources

While I agree with most of your post, this needs addressed. The Spanish were just as exploitative of colonies, just as destructive. In some ways, even more so. You seem to think spreading christianity was a good motive/incentive for the Spanish colonizers, something that made honourable the destruction of other cultures. With the express intention of destroying the subject peoples' religions and cultures, in order to replace them with a spanish one, they terrorized peoples, forced them to adopt spanish ways, destroyed artifacts, histories, religious items. They recorded these peoples' beliefs so that they could systematically destroy them! Spreading christianity seems innocuous or good to a christian, but the heathens were quite happy with their beliefs! Having another religion forced on your people is extremely offensive. As Waku mentioned, the americas produced a catholicism syncretous with indigenous religions - showing that those were very important to the people who kept them. They adopted the ways forced on them by the spanish, but did not let go of their own beliefs.

All the colonizing europeans were destructive and have much of their current wealth to thank on the colonies they plundered for centuries. The spanish were no exception.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Alfonsus71
I agree JayBee, Spanish civilization should appear in any small report about human history, Spain controlled more than 40% of world land (some could say is an small part) for 3 centuries (some could say is a short time)

Don't you think this is an itsy bitsy exaggerated?
Like from 4% and 1 century?

It was the first Nation-State of the world

What's that?

It was the only empire that has a purpose

The Moors, who had to be defeated by the French for Spain to survive, had no similar purpose? Or the English, even today? The Soviet Union? The Romans?
Most empires imposed their religion on their conquests. If you look closely, however, that was never the real purpose. They all just wanted to get ever more powerful and wealthier.

spanish arts and literature are unparalel;

So say many tribes. And most of these also contributed to science.

Only 1 other empire in history, the british, have had lands in the 5 continents.

Spanish on the South Pole
But if you mean Europe, Asia, Africa, the Americas and Oceania, then so had the Dutch, the French and the Portuguese.

The ominious film "Amistad" from Spielberg showed an spanish ship with slaves and showed Spain as an slavish state, when slavery was prohibited in Spain since the XV century, and colonial slavery only progressed due to local corruption and disobedience to peninsular spanish laws.

Right. Spain was boss, you said?

[kittenOFchaos]

Kitten is back in Britain and is VERY happy now...Spain is cool, if you're spanish (and not a married female if "the economist" is correct in what it says about domestic violence etc...read it and weep).

Name me a few great spanish scientists...any?

[kittenOFchaos]

more

Kitten is back in Britain and is VERY happy now...Spain is cool, if you're spanish (and not a married female if "the economist" is correct in what it says about domestic violence etc...read it and weep).

Name me a few great spanish scientists...any?

[Waku]

Re: more

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Kitten is back in Britain and is VERY happy now...Spain is cool, if you're spanish (and not a married female if "the economist" is correct in what it says about domestic violence etc...read it and weep).

British do this kind of things before they get married (even before they are teenagers)

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Name me a few great spanish scientists...any?

- La Cierva
- Isaac Peral
- Ramón y Cajal
- Severo Ochoa
- Miguel Servet
- Narcis Monturiol

I don't really know why the infierno have I searched 4 u this info. I'm fed up. Whether u like it or not Spain was once THE superpower, and as every other power it collapsed because of ignoring its potential competitors (among other reasons), sitting on its Ivory Tower, looking down on the rest of the world. You should take good note of this (or even better, don't do it).