No Spanish Civ????

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by MarkG
one for the great ancient south american civilizations, one for political correctness

Well, that's an excellent point, I think. The interesting thing is that they could also have added a latino/chicano/hispanic civ for reasons of political correctness Added benefit: I would not have pissed Snap so much with this thread

[Footie Mad]

Perhaps we should start compiling a list of civs we want in the expansion pack then?

[Buck Birdseed]

I routinely click almost every thread on the page. A point was made, I responded to it. Any problems?

But fine, do you want a proper, non-zzz debate about the inclusion vs. exclusion of the Spanish? I can do that. You've largely summarised the case for inclusion, let me do the same for exclusion.

• The game is already very Eurocentric in its inclusion of six essentially European civilizations. As this is not a historical simulation but a fun "what if..." experience, it greatly benefits from having at least one civilization from each continent.
  
• The Spanish had a relatively short period of greatness and has had virtually no influence on world politics for the past 200 years. If you notice, almost all civs included were either huge ancient empires or major players in recent history. It adds to the "identification" with the leader to be able to play a power of today in the game.
  
• The Spanish lack the kind of vivid high-school history-book images that the other Civs here have. I can't think straight off my head of a major Spanish hero, a major Spanish monarch a major
  Spanish battle except for the destruction of the Armada. Perhaps it's because I'm of a northern/western/central-european origin, but so is most of Civ3's target groups.
  
• The key question is, as always, "are they interesting"? I do think that all the civs present in the game have unique and exciting cultural selling points. The Spanish do too, but most of the in-game civs have more exotic behaviours than the spanish. I'd probably have included the Spanish instead of the Germans, but it's largely a toss-up if you ask me.
  
• Larger empires than the Spanish have been excluded. The Mongol Empire once covered 50% of the world's population. Some cuts just had to be made, and the Spanish were not chosen as worthy. Also, larger ethnic groups than Spaniards are not here. Where is the Austronesian/South-East Asian civ, for example?
  
• Does size/importance matter? The Zulus were a footnote in the annals of history yet were definately an interesting such, especially in gameplay terms- they expanded the fastest of any civ ever. What's the Spanish USP (Unique Selling Point)?

Like I said, I think the spanish probably should have been it. However, I don't think it's game-killing in the least, and certainly not something to run up a fuss over.

There, a proper response. Happy?

[Hasdrubal]

1 - Si, Jay Bee, you are absolutely right.

2 - But if it would have included Spain, another civ would have been out, and somebody else would have started this thread complaining about the omission of his favourite and indispensable civ.

There's no point in about it.

When the expainsion pack comes out, you'll have your Spain, Ralf will have his Vikings, and I will have my Carthage.

[Jay Bee]

Snapcase,

Four swift points.


1) I do not have or ever had any problem with you or anybody else on this forum and I hope it continues that way. You first zzz answer was as valid as any other to me. However you repeated your zzz response for no reason. That's all. It's perfectly fine that you disagree with me all you want. And if you do it in a friendly and constructive manner, just as you've done this time, so much the better. And I thank you for that. It helps me look at the other side of things.

I understand most of the points you have made, and as a Latino living in America, I agree with most of them. About the few which I disagree with, well.... let's forget about them. However, much of what you've pointed out could be applicable to most other civs which are in. After all, as you properly stated, your view is influenced by your origins. Just as mine. I would have hoped that the designers of the game took a neutral stance on this aspect.

2) If you re-read my first post you surely notice that I was asking for the criteria of inclusion/exclusion. The Mongol exclusion is equally surprising to me, especially cos they were in both Civ and Civ2. What I could not understand (and still can't) is why civs which were in Civ2 are not in Civ3 anymore.

3) If you re-read my previous posts, you'll notice I was asking for a Latino civ, not a Spanish civ. Most of your points have not taken into account that slight detail.

4) I have never said that the exclusion of the Spanish/Latino/etc is game-killing in the least. I merely stated that the exclusion has made me lose a lot of enthusiasm for this game. That's it. I think you misunderstood me here and that's what put you in such a 'peculiar' mood.

I guess my problem is/has been that I tend to see Civ like much more than a computer game. Due to its educative potential Civ goes far beyond that in my eyes. Professional deformation probably, but it's the way I see it. Gotta work on this.



Hasdrubal.

Thanks pal . I did not ask for exclusion of any of the civs currently in, but you made an excellent point anyway.

[Buck Birdseed]

What other Latino civ, except possibly some sort of Simon Bolivar Superciv, would you include?

One more point- Firaxis has to save some good civs for the first expansion pack. My guess is that Vikings/Spanish/Mongols etc. will all be in there. Why not save some of the best for that?

[Jay Bee]

See, you know at least one great Latino hero!

I was talking about lumpig all Latino countries together. There is little difference between e.g. Spaniards and Argentinians, except that they speak with a funny accent and play soccer much better than us Seriuosly, that could have been good in the sense that there would be a South American-based civ.


That last point is definitely the one.

[Provost Harrison]

I have to admit that I, personally, find the Spanish a bizarre omission, but they were omitted from the original Civ as well. I think they would have been a good inclusion as they had a dramatic effect on world history.

But now you have a task JB, to create a Spanish civilisation for the game

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Snapcase
What other Latino civ, except possibly some sort of Simon Bolivar Superciv, would you include?

One more point- Firaxis has to save some good civs for the first expansion pack. My guess is that Vikings/Spanish/Mongols etc. will all be in there. Why not save some of the best for that?

Of course, they will be in 'an expansion pack'...but probably also without the proper animated leader at least...

[Jay Bee]

But now you have a task JB, to create a Spanish civilisation for the game

You bet!

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Snapcase
The Spanish had a relatively short period of greatness and has had virtually no influence on world politics for the past 200 years.

Ok, so the Americans had virtually no influence on world-politics prior to the 20:th century. Only a short 100+ years of greatness - only half the time.

As always; one can motivate or turn down almost anything in the game with carefully selected history arguments, especially tailored to support once viewpoint.

[Buck Birdseed]

Er, that was not the point I was trying to make. There are many, many empires with really extended periods of greatness that are completely irrelevant to conditions today. Like I said, Size/Important/Length is irrelevant.

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Er, that was not the point I was trying to make. There are many, many empires with really extended periods of greatness that are completely irrelevant to conditions today. Like I said, Size/Important/Length is irrelevant.

Even if that statement would be tenable (it's not verifiable), then I still wonder whether that current-day perspective is a good point to start.

An attempt at a more objective 'greatness' measure could be nice.

[loinburger]

Re: No Spanish Civ????

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Suddenly I have lost most of my interest on this game.

I lost my interest as soon as Firaxis took out the plasma rifles!!!

Seriously though, there are a couple of reasons why this isn't worth getting upset about:

1. Expansions/customizability will insure that you'll have your Spanish.

2. There are a lot of civilizations that had major impacts but are not present in the game. The Spanish had a major influence on the world, but so did the Turks, Vikings, Goths, Assyrians, Hittites, Carthaginians, etc. It's no easy task to decide which Civ had the most impact.

3. Related to point #2, the Spanish had a large empire and an influential culture (even relative to many Civs that are in the game). However, the Spanish empire was relatively short-lived compared to most of the Civs that made it into the game. Powerful, influential, but not necessarily a Civilization that one would readily say "could stand the test of time."

Ok, so the Americans had virtually no influence on world-politics prior to the 20:th century. Only a short 100+ years of greatness - only half the time.

But we're a superpower, man! You gotta let us in!

4. Hey, it's all kind of arbitrary. The fact that the Spanish are not in CivIII does not necessarily mean that Firaxis developers said "The Spanish? Their empire was short-lived! Forget it!" More likely it means that Firaxis developers said "Hey, where'd my dart hit? 'French'? Works for me, put them in." No harm intended, no slight intended.

[KrazyHorse]

Umm...I've got to disagree with the whole "short period of greatness" argument. From the unification of the Two Kingdoms on, Spain was one of the Great Powers of Europe, and rivalled the British in extra-European posessions for 300 years. Spain was the superpower for as long a time (or longer) as the French or British were (1450-1625). If I had to choose one civilisation to leave out in order to include the Spanish, I'd drop the Babylonians. The "strong power in the Near East" is well represented by the inclusion of the Persians. The Iroquois are probably not included for truly "political correctness" reasons, but because it's interesting to have at least 1 civ from each region of the Earth. As it stands, only the Maoris are missing...