No Spanish Civ????

[BeBMan]

Re: more

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Name me a few great spanish scientists...any?

Very arrogant post, or why should they have no great scientists there?

[Ribannah]

The pinnacle of Spain's contribution to science:

"In 1868 because of financial problems the "ICTINEO" was seized by creditors, broken up and sold as scrap. The steam engine was re-installed in a paper mill
and later scrapped."

Point proven.

[Fiera]

Re: Re: more

Originally posted by Waku
Whether u like it or not Spain was once THE superpower, and as every other power it collapsed because of ignoring its potential competitors (among other reasons), sitting on its Ivory Tower, looking down on the rest of the world. You should take good note of this (or even better, don't do it).

Bravo, Waku! While I'm ashamed of some of Apolyton's posters, I'm really proud of having you as one of my fellow posters.

[Jay Bee]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Don't you think this is an itsy bitsy exaggerated?
Like from 4% and 1 century?

40% seems too high, but much larger than 4% and for more than a century

From ascent of Charles V (1520?) till dutch revolt (1575?)

Spain, Low countries (both holland and belgium, much of Italy (lombardy, Naple, Sicily) and all of americas (except Brazil) from
the Rio Grande to the strait of magellan.

From 1575 to end of hapsburgs, 1700, all the above except holland.

For a period from about 1560 to 1620 (dates?) add portugal and its entire empire, including Brazil, Java, trading posts in africa and India.

from 1700 to 1800 spain plus spanish america, from Rio grande to straits of Magellan.


Now Im not fond of spain's pre-modern political heritage - the first spanish regime i really like is the Republic

but thats no reason to not be honest about spains accomplishments.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The pinnacle of Spain's contribution to science:

"In 1868 because of financial problems the "ICTINEO" was seized by creditors, broken up and sold as scrap. The steam engine was re-installed in a paper mill
and later scrapped."

Point proven.

Spain produced few noted scientists, but many writers, artists, musicians, and explorers. Definitely a distinctive civ, and should be included.

and as you have said elsewhere, rib, civ is an alt hist game. It would be interesting to see when and how spain went in a direction that took at away from modern science. I think the answer lies in the reconquista, when spain chose a religious nationalism as a way to deal with the reconquest of the peninsula, at the cost of establishing a culture that was hostile to science, and which tended to feed on itself, complicated by an insecurity that led to the expulsions of moors and jews, and then by a paranoid reaction to the reformation, which killed off a budding humanist culture in 16thc spain.

It would be interesting to use civ to establish an AH where this does not happen? Perhaps a faster and easier reconquista, leading to a more normal spain in the years when european culture was more cosmopolitan, and a fuller absorption of the renaissance spirit before the threat of the reformation.

LOTM
"the sephardim have preserved spanish culture more truely than the spaniards" attributed to Franco.

[Ribannah]

Spain did not even exist as a nation until 1469, and it took until 1492 to regain the entire territory from the Moors, with Granada the last region to fall.
They got rid of all Muslims and Jews, and with the estabishment of the Inquisition everyone who was not Roman Catholic quickly followed. Thus the Spanish civilization took shape, it wasn't pretty.

In 1519 Spain defeated the Aztecs and took control of Mexico. The Incas and Peru were next in 1531-1533. Around that time one could say that they took the #1 spot of world powers, ahead of the Portuguese, Ottoman Turks and others.
In 1580 they even gained Portugal by marriage. One year later the Dutch declared independence and in 1588 the decline of the Spanish empire began with the sinking of the Armada. They lost Portugal in 1640, and when the Habsburg dynasty died out in 1700 a succesion war started, won by the French who put the Bourbons on the throne in 1714. Long before 1700 Spain had lost their lead to the Dutch, the English and the French, they never had full control of the territories they had seized by force.

Spain ended their reign with less citizens than when they started, unable to be self-supporting. They made no technological discoveries whatsoever. Basically what happened was: they inherited both land and a war engine by intrigue, and used it to plunder newly discovered territories where they destroyed existing peaceful civilizations bringing nothing but terror, disease and death.

The original Spanish empire lasted from 1492-1700, with a golden age from 1519-1588.
After 1714 there still was a Spain with a bunch of colonies, but Spain never
regained the #1 spot. In fact, with continued French influence, it could hardly be called an empire. The Inquisition continued to ban one group of citizens after the other.

[yaroslav]

Hi!

Again, I want to beg your pardon for my rather bad english: it's crappy! (thank for the word, Waku). I think that the Spanish Gold era extend more time that somebody in this thread are writing. I think that FACTS from historians and not our opinions (because any opinion must be wrong, and mine first!) must be the subject of our posts, so I quote Francis Bacon that says, in 1624, that Spanish was more powerful then that in Armada's days and that England must be prepared for a destrucction from Spain. And he speak about Spain with this words:

<< I have marvelled sometimes at Spain, how they clasp and contain so large dominios with so few natural Spaniards; but sure the whole compass of spain is a very great body of a tree; far above ROME and SPARTA at the first... >>

So, we cant extend the Golden era of Spain to 1624, at least. And think about Spain's supremacy on his territories.

But, in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, we can read (I think that the link http://www.britannica.com/eb/article...er%20habsburgs must show it)

<< The wars of the 17th century, though they had weakened Spain's power in Europe, had left it still the greatest imperial power in the world >>

So a Golden era can be from 1492 to the medium-later 17th. And Spain was very importan until Napoleon, with his colonies in America...And, yes, there is not many scientifics from Spain, and that it's no very good for us. All South America and many parts of North America (Philip II was king of Spain and Portugal), along with all the colonies of Portugal, Naples, Milan, Spain are many km. I don't know if this is 40%, but I think that it can be 20%, at least... So, a country that have a fifth of the earth have very good points to be in Civ3, in my opinion.

I think that there are not only very powerful historical reasons but marketing reasons too. The game will be translated to Spanish... this means a very important amount of money spend in actors, translators, localization, etc. So I think that Firaxis must include Spanish, because a game that is localize but not include any Spanish's civilization (and perphas Spanish's Muslim can be a good one) is lesser atractive to many spaniards: If you play a game that is not in your langauge but in English and don't see your country, you think that it's normal, but if you see it in your language, can be awesome...

All countrys have a rich and interesting history, from Spain to Australia, from Canada to Argentina. I think that are historical (more important) and marketing (less important) reasons to include Spain, but I can we wrong because I am very far from be perfect...

[Jay Bee]

Yaroslav, citing Francis Bacon is totally unappropriate. We all know he was a Spanish spy at the service of the Spanish Empire. Just like Machiaveli in the Republic of Florence .

Everybody knows as well that The Encyclopedia Britannica is not to be trusted. An example? On the same page you quoted it says it was France, not the Netherlands, not England, the biggest threat to Spanish hegemony in the 17th century. Bunch of liars!

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Yaroslav, citing Francis Bacon is totally unappropriate. We all know he was a Spanish spy at the service of the Spanish Empire. Just like Machiaveli in the Republic of Florence .

Everybody knows as well that The Encyclopedia Britannica is not to be trusted. An example? On the same page you quoted it says it was France, not the Netherlands, not England, the biggest threat to Spanish hegemony in the 17th century. Bunch of liars!

Thank you, Jay. Well, my profersors quote the Britannica many time a few years ago, so I always think that this was important. But I can offer other sources if the aboved offered dislike you, for example, my Encarta (but I dislike this encyclopededia) tells me that Spain crisis began in medium 17th. My history book extend this to Cateau-Cambrays (near 1655). And I don't quote Francis Bacon for myself, I am only using his words in the same way that Julián Marias ("La España Inteligible"), a spanish historian, does it. Bacon wrote a report to this governement with reasons to attack Spain, because Spain was very powerful in his time. Doesn't matter that he was a spy (and I am not secure of he was a spy), he was clever and his reasons are interesting.

[Jay Bee]

Yaroslav please check your personal messages

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by yaroslav
Spain's crisis began in medium 17th

That much is true. Portugal regained its independence in 1640, and in 1648 the Dutch had their final victory over the Spanish. But that crisis didn't come from nowhere. As with other empires, between the Golden Age and crisis was a period of constant decline.

Meanwhile, the year 1602 marked the start of the Golden Age of the Dutch, when the Dutch East Indies Company was formed. It took until sometime in the 18th century before the English took over. But the Dutch never fell back as the Spanish did, they were (and are) simply fewer in numbers than most rival European powers, even though they welcomed many refugees.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Spain did not even exist as a nation until 1469, and it took until 1492 to regain the entire territory from the Moors, with Granada the last region to fall.
They got rid of all Muslims and Jews, and with the estabishment of the Inquisition everyone who was not Roman Catholic quickly followed. Thus the Spanish civilization took shape, it wasn't pretty.

At the same time neither Germany nor Russia existed as unified nation-state, not to mention Americans, Greeks, Zulu or Iroquis. I can not comprehend why some people are so fixed about nation states here - formation of nation state was a step in civilization development that occured in most cases (save for some of the ancient ones) in the second half of the second millenium of this era.
The fact that Spanish civilization was not pretty has nothing to do about them being civilization all right. Do you wish to exclude any civilization doing not pretty things from the game - than in your world frankly speaking everybody would have to go.

In 1519 Spain defeated the Aztecs and took control of Mexico. The Incas and Peru were next in 1531-1533. Around that time one could say that they took the #1 spot of world powers, ahead of the Portuguese, Ottoman Turks and others.
In 1580 they even gained Portugal by marriage. One year later the Dutch declared independence and in 1588 the decline of the Spanish empire began with the sinking of the Armada. They lost Portugal in 1640, and when the Habsburg dynasty died out in 1700 a succesion war started, won by the French who put the Bourbons on the throne in 1714. Long before 1700 Spain had lost their lead to the Dutch, the English and the French, they never had full control of the territories they had seized by force.

You can say the same about the world dominance by Germans, French or even Greeks (the Alexander's empire falling apart soon after his death). The fact is Spain has a major impact on the world, they still exist and have a culture different enough from say Germans, French or English to be considered a separate civilization (culture which comprises not only of Spain, but South America and Mexico to say the least).

Spain ended their reign with less citizens than when they started, unable to be self-supporting. They made no technological discoveries whatsoever, their only famous scientist was Machiavelli who was, of course, a political theorist. Basically what happened was: they inherited both land and a war engine by intrigue, and used it to plunder newly discovered territories where they destroyed existing peaceful civilizations bringing nothing but terror, disease and death.

Let's just say that calling Machiavelli a Spaniard shows a lot about your knowledge of history and what you are talking about.

The original Spanish empire lasted from 1492-1700, with a golden age from 1519-1588. After 1714 there still was a Spain with a bunch of colonies, but Spain never regained the #1 spot. In fact, with continued French influence, it could hardly be called an empire. The Inquisition continued to ban one group of citizens after the other.

Inquisition in the 18th century? Get real. Or better yet, get a history book.

[Alfonsus71]

Originally posted by Martinus

I fail to appreciate the reason while that particular "purpose" of the Spanish empire distinguises it so much from the English who were "civilizing the savages", ...

Guess is difficult to explain, but I mean that the spanish empire has allways legitimated its expansion. Before the colonization of the americas, Spain obtained an offcial document of papal blessing. Colonization and conquering of the aztec and inca empire was not an invasion, no regular spanish troops went to the Americas before the XVII century. That early conquers were made by private initiative of few men, some looking for gold and power, other for glory and nobility status,... And, what I mean with the "purpose", in most cases the tribes were not conquered and then forced to conversion, unarmed spanish missionaries went to the tribes to spread christianism, they made some mix beetwen local believings and catholicism (something like "Jesuschrist was the son of the Sun you adore", things that could have been called heressy in England, probably even today), and thousands of them died for that purpose. Never in world history, except in the first steps of chistianism, have been such quantity and quality of personal sacrifice in the name of God. That´s why I said colonization has some honourable "purpose".

[Alfonsus71]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Don't you think this is an itsy bitsy exaggerated?
Like from 4% and 1 century?

South America, Central and north America (up to half the current united States, California, New Mexico, and for some time Lousiana), Philippines, most of the coast of Africa and India (specially while peninsular unification), half Europe, and many pacific islands, are 4% of the world?. It´s not a question of opinion, is a measurable matter.

Originally posted by Ribannah
What's that?

National State means something like modern state, in opposition to old feudal kingdoms. Its the first step for a nation to inititate its expansion. While most Europe were old feudal territories, Spain, England and France were national states.

Originally posted by Ribannah
The Moors, who had to be defeated by the French for Spain to survive, had no similar purpose? Or the English, even today? The Soviet Union? The Romans?

The Moors were not defeated by the French to save Spain, Spain was "recovered" by spanish christians in a very long process (7 centuries) called "Reconquista", and moor legacy in Spain made our culture richer.

Originally posted by Ribannah

Most empires imposed their religion on their conquests. If you look closely, however, that was never the real purpose. They all just wanted to get ever more powerful and wealthier.

See my last post about that.

Originally posted by Ribannah
Spanish on the South Pole

Spain has a scientific base in the South Pole, called "Juan Carlos I", and its present in the Antartic Teatry. What about Holland?.