AU mod: The ToE - Hoover beeline

[ducki]

Oh, when I recommended the free libs/unis for ToE, I didn't take culture into account. Damn.

Is there a way to give the ToE negative culture to compensate? Otherwise, if Jesse doesn't switch it to random techs, the doubles scientific research or +50% science may be the only non-culture affecting effect.

Maybe another way to get the effects of increased research would be to have the ToE give courthouses continentally/globally, but that doesn't strictly match the science flavor, has the side effect of increasing production in general(doesn't it?) and non-science income.

Coises, foiled again!

[jshelr]

Why are we so anxious about culture?? Even with the culture story, I still like this idea.

[alexman]

Have you ever built the Internet? As sabrewolf metnioned, it's the warmongers dream. Border expansions without spending money to rush Temples.

By the way, I have no problem with it, as long as we change the Internet to be something else. Perhaps the Internet gives the 2 free techs?

[jshelr]

I usually build labs right away after getting computers.

I agree that the border expansion result is helpful to warmongers. But that benefit is ok by me and already exists early in the game due to the new wonder that gives temples. Maybe the ToE universities should disappear on researching computers to create some havoc later in the game.

[ducki]

I thought the internet did Research Labs, not Unis, though I have trouble keeping tabs on the late wonders.

I actually think the 2 free techs in the Modern Era to be much less of a problem. Most of time I actually end up there, I'm usually in "good GOD can we please hurry this up?!?" mode.

I vaguely remember suggesting that since we moved Longevity to Industrial that we move ToE to Modern to keep the balance, as it were, but met resistance there.

I think that swapping the effects of, say, the Internet and ToE would be much less unbalancing while maintaining the flavor of stock. I don't, however, think it would make ToE less desirable for the human, although if the AI actually managed to get it, I think free Unis would be far more beneficial to the AI than 2 free techs that it's probably going to choose "incorrectly" anyways.

EDIT:

universities should disappear on researching computers to create some havoc later in the game.

On the off-chance that the AI builds ToE, wouldn't this really hurt it? Would it waste a lot of time going back and building Unis so it could build Labs? Maybe that's such a slim possibilty that we shouldn't even bother thinkiing about the AI getting ToE, I dunno.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Have you ever built the Internet? As sabrewolf metnioned, it's the warmongers dream. Border expansions without spending money to rush Temples.

You mean like the Temple of Artemis?

[smellymummy]

free unis is a little too much imo... toe costs 600 vs unis at 200. as far as getting random techs from the toe, wasn't that how civ3 was originally released?

[nbarclay]

Originally, ToE gave the cheapest tech you didn't have yet, which too often meant you got an optional tech from the middle ages. It also just gave one tech instead of two (or one and part of another if you don't time it perfectly) if I recall correctly. Firaxis "fixed" the problem of the wonder's being worth next to nothing if there were old optional techs you hadn't learned yet, but went to the opposite extreme and made it what we now consider too powerful (in part because we've gotten so much better at building up big tech leads that ToE makes even bigger).

The thing that bothers me about having ToE give free universities is that that makes it far more a warmonger's toy than a builder's toy. The Internet can be useful to a builder because it provides free research labs just a tech and a wonder build after research labs become available. Thus, delaying building research labs until the wonder can provide them for free generally works out pretty well. But builders will have already built most of their universities by the time ToE becomes available, leading to a situation where warmongers can get a bunch of free universities as they conquer cities (and in cities they already conquered but haven't gotten around to building universities in yet) while builders get next to nothing.

Conceptually, as something tied to advances in science, ToE ought to be at least as much a wonder for builders as a wonder for warmongers. So I don't think having it give free universities is good fit.

Nathan

[ducki]

But builders will have already built most of their universities by the time ToE becomes available, leading to a situation where warmongers can get a bunch of free universities as they conquer cities (and in cities they already conquered but haven't gotten around to building universities in yet) while builders get next to nothing.

But what's the upkeep cost of a University per turn? Is that instant income increase significant? How much gold could you get (per university) for selling off the ones you built from scratch? What's the value of not having to build Unis in your corrupt towns? Would "Doubles Scientific Research" or "+50% Scientific Research" provide an equivalent increase in science funding for the "average" empire, builderly or warmonger? (I don't know the answers to any of these, just trying to find out the comparative benefits.)

[alexman]

How about making the ToE effect exactly like the Internet: free labs.

Free labs work even before computers, giving the builder with universities and no more science improvements to build a great advantage. They give less culture than universities, reducing the advantage of the warmonger compared to that of free universities. But is having research labs half an age earlier too powerful? And of course the usual question, is the change too drastic for this mod?

[jshelr]

What if a civ, upon building ToE, is enlightened sufficiently to learn facism (the evolution of superior beings and all that) and communism (the evolution of the perfect society). That would make the build worth something, but not a game breaker. (Can the AI be taught not to both build it and research the governments?)

[nbarclay]

Here's a thought:

1) Create a new building that works the same as libraries, universities, and research labs but produces no culture.

2) Have ToE give one of that building in every city in the civ.

3) Make ToE expire with whichever tech we think is most likely to be the last mandatory tech players research in the industrial era.

That would cause ToE to give a significant research boost through most or all of the rest of the industrial era without the kind of sudden jump it provides now and without giving warmongers cultural goodies. Also note that the four-turn minimum would still apply, so players who are already on a four-turn pace couldn't get two free techs in addition to the lead their four-turn pace provides.

[jshelr]

Nice job Nathan -- that fixes the issues with ideas others above had and produces a reasonable wonder that gives you an edge without going overboard. I think we are getting near an acceptable solution.

[alexman]

Sounds good to me too.

Give the new improvement a dummy resource requirement so that it's not buildable on its own.

Make it expire with computers, so there is no overlap with research labs, but there is more incentive to research the Industrial Age optional techs.

[nbarclay]

The problem with making the wonder expire with Computers is that it would give the player with ToE a strong incentive to delay researching Computers because instead of providing a scientific advantage, Computers would provide a scientific disadvantage. I view that as a very bad thing.

If Firaxis makes Advanced Flight mandatory when they get rid of Radio (assuming they do), or if we would do so, we could have ToE expire wth Advanced Flight. If players have any optional techs they want to research, they could research them before Advanced Flight. I'm not quite sure what would be best if Firaxis gets rid of Radio without making Advanced Flight mandatory and if we don't want to make Advanced Flight mandatry. (With Radio still in, having ToE expire with Radio would be a good fit to give players a chance to research optional techs if they want to.)

Nathan